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Okay so interesting results from tonight's experiments but definitely a step in the right direction. First, isolating the DC ground immediately helped, the intensity and frequency of spikes when switching local inductive loads was drastically reduced. I then traced my wire routing to ensure as much spacing between HV and LV lines, but this made no discernable difference in my testing. So bottom line, I still have spikes which now only go down to -40C instead of -196C (for the RTDs) but this only occurs when an inductive load is switched on not off and does not occur every time.

Tomorrow, my plan is to go through all the wiring and replace anything "questionable" in terms of possible EMI with shielded cable. I assume it's okay to shield the RTD wires to the arduino (SPI, SCi etc.)?

@BrunDog here is a photo of the current configuration of my panel. Hopefully you can see something I'm overlooking.
IMG_0370.jpg
 
For me it was a combination of putting snubbers and diodes on my coils and swapping out my relay board with a sunfounder relay board which has better isolation that cured my spikes along with eliminating ground loops which I did have. My panel has been rock solid since.
 
@HobbyBrauer, a lot of what you've done in your enclosure looks really nice. But, I have a few questions:

Why the use of DP breakers for 120VAC circuits?
You have what appears to be a terminal block that joins the grounds and neutrals (next to the left-hand SSR). Why?
Why do you neck the incoming neutral down to such a small gauge?
What is that bare metal bit floating next to the "DN-FM6L?"
Where is the ground bus the incoming AC ground connects to?

A couple of these are safety issues that may need a review. I would also look at that neutral-ground connection as low-hanging fruit for noise mitigation.
 
GParkins said:
@HobbyBrauer, a lot of what you've done in your enclosure looks really nice. But, I have a few questions:

Why the use of DP breakers for 120VAC circuits?
You have what appears to be a terminal block that joins the grounds and neutrals (next to the left-hand SSR). Why?
Why do you neck the incoming neutral down to such a small gauge?
What is that bare metal bit floating next to the "DN-FM6L?"
Where is the ground bus the incoming AC ground connects to?

A couple of these are safety issues that may need a review. I would also look at that neutral-ground connection as low-hanging fruit for noise mitigation.
Click to expand...

The entire panel is 240vAC the only item that uses 120v is the glycol chiller so 240v main distribution breakers and then the 120v chiller has a fuse built into the device for protection.
The terminal block next to the left hand ssr is not bonding the ground and neutral it simply is acting as a terminal to wire the same glycol chiller to the panel.
Never occured to me that necking the incoming neutral down to 14awg would have an effect. I did this simply to ease wiring but could try removing it and direct wiring it to the chiller terminal block.
The "bare metal bit" is actually a DC-DC converter chip which reduces the 24vDC to 12vDC to power the mega. The ground from this converter is tied to the main 24vDC ground as well. As a side note the DN-FM6L is Class CC fuse holder for my pumps.
The earth ground bus is to the right of the UPS you can see the big green wiring snake towards it but can't see the bus in this shot. Will upload a photo of it tonight.
 
I got a lot of noise from my chiller and its 240v, had to put rc snubbers on everything in it like the pump and actual compressor power.
I agree it looks like the green ground and white wire are on the same terminal block and joined?
 
Hi @HobbyBrauer, thanks for posting up a photo of your control enclosure. This helps quite a bit but without a schematic its still a bit difficult to fully understand. To be honest, I'm concerned there isn't much separation between the high and low voltage devices and wires. In many cases, they run next to each other, even through the same terminal block. This is the most important practice to eliminate/reduce EMI. Understanding it is wired, it may not be practical to rewire it. Therefore we need to isolate the DC stuff as much as possible. Start by twisting all DC wiring to prevent them from becoming antennas.

Second, run the RTD wires all they way back to the amplifiers - there should not be intermediate terminals. Also run the shields all the way back to the amps - right now they are floating so are ineffective.
 
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@HobbyBrauer I see now that the terminal block is a double-stack, and it looks like you have segregation between neutral and ground there. However, the close look also shows some really confusing gauge changes on the high-voltage side of the SSRs as they pass through the pair of terminal blocks between the SSRs. What are your SSRs driving? What is the amperage rating of the "SSR 1" breaker? I'd really like to see a detailed schematic to get a clearer picture of what you have going on. I also don't see a ground jumper to the enclosure door.
 
BrunDog,

Been following these posts. Really like what I see. Although for me, it may be to late. Just finished my controller based on the CraftbeerPI program. Problem I’m having is that it doesn’t work. Wondering how much $$ and time to convert to your system. Not concerned about licensing as I appreciate the real support.

Here is what I have built:

3 vessels:
Gas fired boil kettle with gas controller
Passive HLT
SS Brewtech mash tun with electric 120v RIMS
2 chugger pumps

Control system uses SSRs for all four actors. Current system also includes two PIDs for the gas burner and the RIMS. I’m using this as the “manual” mode until I get “auto’ mode working.

To run the CBP program, I used a RaspberryPI and interface board. This includes two DS18b20 sensors.

Understand that your program requires windows “server”; no problem. My question is, when can I expect to see RaspberryPI incorporated as the controller? And if never is the response, can the Adurino controller simply be swapped in?

Appreciate your response.
George
 
George Schuster said:
My question is, when can I expect to see RaspberryPI incorporated as the controller? And if never is the response, can the Adurino controller simply be swapped in?
Click to expand...

I think this post answers your first question.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?posts/8170297

And the second answer is, as you probably guessed, it depends. For instance, I found out recently that you cannot run 5v relays from the MEGA, but I've heard you can from a RPI.
 
TexasWine said:
I think this post answers your first question.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?posts/8170297

And the second answer is, as you probably guessed, it depends. For instance, I found out recently that you cannot run 5v relays from the MEGA, but I've heard you can from a RPI.
Click to expand...
You can power 5v relays from the mega as long as you power the mega with 9-12v dc.. I do it myself.
If you power the mega with 5v the regulator ironically only pushes 3.3v to the outputs. Of course this might depend on the MA required by the relay boards for switching. I use a 4 channel sunfounder board as well as a 2 channel no name 30a 5v relay board with mine. Zero problems.
 
Last edited:
augiedoggy said:
You can power 5v relays from the mega as long as you power the mega with 9-12v dc.. I do it myself.
If you power the mega with 5v the regulator ironically only pushes 3.3v to the outputs. Of course this might depend on the MA required by the relay boards for switching. I use a 4 channel sunfounder board as well as a 2 channel no name 30a 5v relay board with mine. Zero problems.
Click to expand...
Thanks for clarifying that! Learned something new.
 
George Schuster said:
To run the CBP program, I used a RaspberryPI and interface board. This includes two DS18b20 sensors.

Understand that your program requires windows “server”; no problem. My question is, when can I expect to see RaspberryPI incorporated as the controller? And if never is the response, can the Adurino controller simply be swapped in?
Click to expand...

As far as I know the interface board can be wired to any BC supported arduino interface. Offcourse the connectors don't match so you have to wire individual wires from the pins on the arduino interface to the correct pins on the CBPI interface board. Also the onboard 5V power supply is powerful enough to power the arduino interface. With 4 actors and two PIDs the Feather Wifi would be a good choice. The $5 Wemos D1 mini would also be a great choice however I am uncertain if it supports PIDs controlling SSRs as all pins have PWM output which is a bit to fast for a SSR.
 
Currently, no pun intended, I drive the SSRs with 3v off the RBP extension board. No issues with that.
So I would need an Arduino and possibly the suggested Feather board, correct?

The PIDS used for manual mode are cut out of the circuit in auto mode. Wired a toggle to allow for manual PID brewing or automated brew steps.

Thanks for the fast info.
 
BrunDog said:
Hi @HobbyBrauer, thanks for posting up a photo of your control enclosure. This helps quite a bit but without a schematic its still a bit difficult to fully understand. To be honest, I'm concerned there isn't much separation between the high and low voltage devices and wires. In many cases, they run next to each other, even through the same terminal block. This is the most important practice to eliminate/reduce EMI. Understanding it is wired, it may not be practical to rewire it. Therefore we need to isolate the DC stuff as much as possible. Start by twisting all DC wiring to prevent them from becoming antennas.

Second, run the RTD wires all they way back to the amplifiers - there should not be intermediate terminals. Also run the shields all the way back to the amps - right now they are floating so are ineffective.
Click to expand...

Will definitely try playing with the RTD wires tonight strange though that they are all running parallel but only one of them is displaying the spikes (RTD 1). In terms of separation I tried to layout the bottom rail so as to accomplish this. The far left is RTDs, then analog sensors, then DC power, relays, and then AC devices on the right. The two SSRs control heating elements and the last relay controls the glycol chiller. These AC devices are all powered by the last breaker (SSR1) which is rated for 20 amps and then goes through contactor before routing down to terminal blocks. So in total there are only two AC wires which cross the dc ones for about 6" before splitting. I could re-run around the panel if needed later.

@GParkins I designed the wiring to be as thick as possible inside the panel to allow for future upgrades / expansion. Currently I am only using one ssr to control the single 2000w element in my BIAB system. Eventually, I plan to add a second RIMS element which would be regulated by the second ssr but for now its not being used.
 
Ozarks_Mountain_Brew said:
just curious besides the cost issue, any reason not to just use ssr's for everything instead of a relay
Click to expand...
For me it's the fact that ssrs leak current. Also I like to kill both poles and dual pole ssrs are pricey. Plus I like to utilize both the NO and NC contacts as a mechanical means to prevent the possibility of too many elements being on at once.
 
I'd be surprised if the vast majority of Arduino boards sporting Atmel chips are NOT all 5V IO.

Arduino boards historically have used a 3 pin linear regulator to produce 5V in lieu of powering the board from a USB host connection (5V).
Those regulators need at least a couple of volts of VIN->VOUT differential to produce 5V, and that increases with load. But if you feed it too high an input voltage these regulators will turn the excess into heat. The sweet spot is 9V...

Cheers!
 
A few comments following the above posts...

Yes, you can power 5V relays from the MEGA’s onboard regulator. I routinely tell people they shouldn’t for two reasons: first, you may overload the regulator, and the microprocessor chip onboard is not very tolerant of voltage dips and spikes, which relay coils can generate. The regulator puts out (as correctly noted above) 5V which is what the micro on the Mega uses. This regulator had about 200mA (at 5V) of spare current beyond the micro and other onboard circuitry. This spare capacity can be used to run a network shield, 1-wire sensors, or relays, providing the current is not exceeded (and noise is not introduced). We typically recommend 12 V to give users the spare power and also have 12V to use for 12V relay boards etc. You could also power the Mega with 5V (via 5V pin) but that needs to be really clean power.

Edit: Just to clarify the 200mA comment above... any shield or breakout that is powered by the MEGA 5V power draws into this power. For example, a WiFi shield uses most of this leaving very little... hence a rationale to use an external 5V supply for any additional 5V devices.
 
Last edited:
George Schuster said:
Currently, no pun intended, I drive the SSRs with 3v off the RBP extension board. No issues with that.
So I would need an Arduino and possibly the suggested Feather board, correct?

The PIDS used for manual mode are cut out of the circuit in auto mode. Wired a toggle to allow for manual PID brewing or automated brew steps.

Thanks for the fast info.
Click to expand...

You can run the SSRs off the Arduino if you like - you wouldn’t need anything else.

Regarding manual/auto PIDs, BruControl offers both (duty cycle and PID) devices, and you can use them as you see fit.
 
George Schuster said:
BrunDog,

Been following these posts. Really like what I see. Although for me, it may be to late. Just finished my controller based on the CraftbeerPI program. Problem I’m having is that it doesn’t work. Wondering how much $$ and time to convert to your system. Not concerned about licensing as I appreciate the real support.

Here is what I have built:

3 vessels:
Gas fired boil kettle with gas controller
Passive HLT
SS Brewtech mash tun with electric 120v RIMS
2 chugger pumps

Control system uses SSRs for all four actors. Current system also includes two PIDs for the gas burner and the RIMS. I’m using this as the “manual” mode until I get “auto’ mode working.

To run the CBP program, I used a RaspberryPI and interface board. This includes two DS18b20 sensors.

Understand that your program requires windows “server”; no problem. My question is, when can I expect to see RaspberryPI incorporated as the controller? And if never is the response, can the Adurino controller simply be swapped in?

Appreciate your response.
George
Click to expand...

Yes, you can basically just wire in an Arduino to run the SSRs and sensors.
 
George Schuster said:
Currently, no pun intended, I drive the SSRs with 3v off the RBP extension board. No issues with that.
So I would need an Arduino and possibly the suggested Feather board, correct?

The PIDS used for manual mode are cut out of the circuit in auto mode. Wired a toggle to allow for manual PID brewing or automated brew steps.

Thanks for the fast info.
Click to expand...

Yes you need a Feather and some breadboard wires (male-female?) to wire it up to the board. I am sure you won't regret going from Cbpi to BC!
 
Ozarks_Mountain_Brew said:
just curious besides the cost issue, any reason not to just use ssr's for everything instead of a relay
Click to expand...

As long as you don’t need N.C. contacts, you can just use SSRs. There are low current SSR boards which are great as they take up little space and are inexpensive (multi channel boards, not the big individual pucks we use for high current).
 
day_trippr said:
I'd be surprised if the vast majority of Arduino boards sporting Atmel chips are NOT all 5V IO.

Arduino boards historically have used a 3 pin linear regulator to produce 5V in lieu of powering the board from a USB host connection (5V).
Those regulators need at least a couple of volts of VIN->VOUT differential to produce 5V, and that increases with load. But if you feed it too high an input voltage these regulators will turn the excess into heat. The sweet spot is 9V...

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Spot-on!!
 
I just want to mention that one of the other things about the ssrs while this should have been obvious I discovered they really need to be the correct voltage type for the application.. unlike a small mechanical relay which works just like a switch an ac ssr wont work at all for a dc load (or DC switching at all) you need a dc ssr switch or mosfet depending on load.

I also found the power requirements for the different relay boards are all over the place.. It really makes a difference on which board you buy.
 
I am looking over the wiring diagram for the 50 amp dual element build on the Brucontrol site. I am curious about the 50 amp circuit but their seems to be nothing heavier than 10 gauge wire. How is this able to handle the load through the 50 amp contactor and distribution block before we get to the 30 amp breakers?
 
shadow160 said:
I am looking over the wiring diagram for the 50 amp dual element build on the Brucontrol site. I am curious about the 50 amp circuit but their seems to be nothing heavier than 10 gauge wire. How is this able to handle the load through the 50 amp contactor and distribution block before we get to the 30 amp breakers?
Click to expand...

You are correct... this is a visual mistake in the drawing. From the NEMA L14-50 plug to the 50A contactor, then from the contactor to the Line 1 and Line 2 terminal blocks, should be 6 AWG wire.

This is not represented correctly - we will address. Thank you for pointing this out!
 
shadow160 said:
I am looking over the wiring diagram for the 50 amp dual element build on the Brucontrol site. I am curious about the 50 amp circuit but their seems to be nothing heavier than 10 gauge wire. How is this able to handle the load through the 50 amp contactor and distribution block before we get to the 30 amp breakers?
Click to expand...

As BrunDog stated, you need 6 awg from the input to the contactor and from the contactor to your distribution block. The last post in my build thread has a picture of my wiring, and you can see the 6 awg wire in the bottom right. It is no fun to work with in an enclosure, that is for sure.
 
adman said:
As BrunDog stated, you need 6 awg from the input to the contactor and from the contactor to your distribution block. The last post in my build thread has a picture of my wiring, and you can see the 6 awg wire in the bottom right. It is no fun to work with in an enclosure, that is for sure.
Click to expand...
Thanks I was just going by the gauges listed in the wiring diagram.
 
Do you have a link for the 50 amp contactor you used? the ones I am finding are about $90 and I figure there is probably something less expensive out there.
 
Perfect thank you guys!
I am not sure why I was having such a hard time with that one. I bought the DIN mounted one since it will allow me to shorten up the 6g runs.
 

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