Briess Bavarian Wheat DME much darker after boil

[ed_brews_now]

I noted the color of the all Breiss Bavarian Wheat DME wort before the boil and after the boil and became much darker.
I am concerned that I have a lot of caramelization during resulting from the boil. My pure Pilsen DME batch never got that dark. I check to make sure there was no scorching at the bottom of the brew kettle. There was none. Should I be concerned that I have too much unfermentables now? Has anyone had experience with this DME?
Is that darkness natural? From caremelization?

(I joked with my friends that if it remains dark, it will be dunkel.

 

[Rev2010]

Never had that happen and I've done a few hefe's with Briess wheat DME. All my hefe's came out pretty exact to the estimated SRM in Beersmith. And I do boil my DME for the whole 60 minutes.


Rev.

 

[Rickycore]

I did a heffe last night and when i racked it i noticed that it looked too dark for the style in the carboy. I pulled out my SG reading and it looked perfect in the test tube. This is just a guess for me cause I'm super green but I think it may have to do with how cloudy that style of beer naturally is making it appear much darker. Was yours still dark during your gravity reading?

 

[Rev2010]

^^^ That's a good point. OP, how were you checking the before and after color? Were you taking just a small sample? Because if you're looking at the beer in the fermenter it will look a lot darker since there's more beer for the light to pass through making it appear darker. In the drinking glass or a hydrometer sample will look much lighter.


Rev.

 

[unionrdr]

It's also because you're boiling the snot out of something that's already been through all that. LME/DME is wort that's already been through mashing,hot break-all that AG stuff. Went through the exact same process that is being done manually by all grainers.
You're just trying to make it do it again. All malt extracts are really intended for is mixing with boiling water off the heat. People are trying to do full boils Like AG with something that's already done & ready to mix up. The trouble comes in,imo,when un-hopped extract is used in place of fresh wort from mashing,sparging,etc a bunch of grains. So it is being caramelized,to whatever extent.
Not to stir up a wizzin contest or anything. But that's the way it was intended to be. Easier for the inexperienced. Not more stuff to complicate things. Nor to replace others.

 

[ed_brews_now]

I was looking in the boil kettle after I stirred in the extract just before boil. It was light golden.
In the fermenter it was amber -- dark. Though my friend who is holding the fermentation say it has gotten lighter. Perhaps it was all the hops floating around.

I just did a pilsen extract boil and I got the same thing.

^^^ That's a good point. OP, how were you checking the before and after color? Were you taking just a small sample?


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

Yeah, until you take a hydro sample I wouldn't worry.


Rev.

 

[doctorRobert]

I was looking in the boil kettle after I stirred in the extract just before boil. It was light golden.
In the fermenter it was amber -- dark. Though my friend who is holding the fermentation say it has gotten lighter. Perhaps it was all the hops floating around.

I just did a pilsen extract boil and I got the same thing.

You boiled off some of the water - so the wort got more concentrated and in turn got darker.

Did you use any specialty grains?

I think you'll be surprised how much lighter the color will be in a glass. Also, hefeweizens typically have a golden, almost brown or orange hue to them (especially extracts), itll be a darker beer than a pilsner. Even commercial examples.

 

[CrookedTail]

Do late extract additions. Add a small amount at the beginning of the boil (I add ~20%) then add the remaining in the final 15 minutes just to sanitize it. If you boil the entire amount for the full 60 minute period, the concentrated wort will caramelize and give you off flavors, especially if you're doing partial boils.

I've gotten beers (including hefes) extremely light using the method above.

 

[unionrdr]

This is another strange thing I've noticed as well. Extract kits aren't darker for that reason. It's all too easy to carmelize it as has been said. I add all the LME/DME at the end. A light colored beer will be light no matter what is used. But it is strange that,for instance,my current batch was like a light copper color in the hydro sample to get an OG. Brown krausen pushing at the lid. Then,as it progressed in primary,it got a light golden with an amber blush. A bit green,but light flavored.
I went to toss in my dry hop bag,& this wonderful buiscuty,herby smell struck me that I didn't get much of previously. So it seems that,no matter the recipe,it goes through a few changes till you crack that 1st one. Then is when I've seen the color,aroma,flavor & the like go to more what I thought it should. It's the darnedest thing,but part of the process,I guess.

 

[Rev2010]

I add all the LME/DME at the end.

Wouldn't that lead to increased hop bitterness as some have claimed?

I myself do a late addition for LME. I use half for the whole boil and half at about 15 minutes left to the boil. However, I simply have never found a need for this with DME. With DME I've always done the whole amount for the full boil and all of my brews have come out exactly matching the SRM color listed in Beersmith. I'm always shocked how darn accurate that program is, not only in color but OG and FG gravity's. So if there's any potential for darkening with DME I'm just not experiencing it. Maybe it's the way I'm adding it in? I whisk it in to the kettle at about 180F then bring to a boil.


Rev.

 

[unionrdr]

Wouldn't that lead to increased hop bitterness as some have claimed?

I myself do a late addition for LME. I use half for the whole boil and half at about 15 minutes left to the boil. However, I simply have never found a need for this with DME. With DME I've always done the whole amount for the full boil and all of my brews have come out exactly matching the SRM color listed in Beersmith. I'm always shocked how darn accurate that program is, not only in color but OG and FG gravity's. So if there's any potential for darkening with DME I'm just not experiencing it. Maybe it's the way I'm adding it in? I whisk it in to the kettle at about 180F then bring to a boil.


Rev.

I don't think it will increase the hop bitterness when,in my case,the hop tea was brewed for 15mins for a flavor/aroma addition. With aroma/flavor hops (low AAU%). While DME's are more forgiving in that context,LME's aren't. Like I said before,they've already been through the whole process,so there's no need to do it again. In other words,you don't have to. But DME's can be used this way.
I think you might be onto something in the way you're going about it. I had this sort of discussion with the brew tech for Cooper's on their site. The way I'm doing it seems to be what they intended. But more folks are learning that what you're doing can be done. Within reason,of course. Just be careful not to caramelize it.

 

[cervezarara]

There are some interesting threads on the topic of caramelization and maillard reactions that occur during the boil. A good non-scientific discussion is presented by Bill pierce in BYO, September 2007:
http://www.byo.com/component/resource/article/117-Departments/251-boiling-advanced-brewing

I, for one, like the late extract addition method and use a half and half approach. I typically brew beers around 1.065 SG, in 2.5-3 gallons of water, so half of the extract goes in for the full boil and half with 15 minutes left. I haven't done AG, but there is a hot break associated with DME and it is usually a little worse at the late addition causing near boilovers. I have used Bavarian Wheat DME in several batches and, depending on the specialty grains, have produced beautiful 6 SRM ales!
Cheers.

 

[unionrdr]

There are some interesting threads on the topic of caramelization and maillard reactions that occur during the boil. A good non-scientific discussion is presented by Bill pierce in BYO, September 2007:
http://www.byo.com/component/resource/article/117-Departments/251-boiling-advanced-brewing

I, for one, like the late extract addition method and use a half and half approach. I typically brew beers around 1.065 SG, in 2.5-3 gallons of water, so half of the extract goes in for the full boil and half with 15 minutes left. I haven't done AG, but there is a hot break associated with DME and it is usually a little worse at the late addition causing near boilovers. I have used Bavarian Wheat DME in several batches and, depending on the specialty grains, have produced beautiful 6 SRM ales!
Cheers.

You know,that line about DME's & hot break makes me wonder if that might be why I had so much krausen in the fermenter? I added all the DME/LME at the end to mix them. It looks/smells fantastic,just the same.

 

[ed_brews_now]

I find that the LME is really difficult to stir to even consistency. It takes a long time.
DME is worse.

I get it all uniform and dissolve before the boil.

How do you get it consistent in 15 mins?

Wouldn't that lead to increased hop bitterness as some have claimed?

I myself do a late addition for LME.... So if there's any potential for darkening with DME I'm just not experiencing it. Maybe it's the way I'm adding it in? I whisk it in to the kettle at about 180F then bring to a boil.


Rev.

 

[ed_brews_now]

OP here,

Now that the batch has gone through the ramp up fermentation and bubbling is slowing down, I notice that it is getting lighter.
This may be because of yeast reflecting light though.

 

[ed_brews_now]

Did you whirlfloc it?

You know,that line about DME's & hot break makes me wonder if that might be why I had so much krausen in the fermenter? I added all the DME/LME at the end to mix them. It looks/smells fantastic,just the same.

 

[unionrdr]

Did you whirlfloc it?

I haven't seen a need for whirlflock. I let my brews stay in primary to allow the yeast to clean after the feast. that's 12 days to 3 weeks,depending on how long it takes to reach FG.
I dry hopped this batch at the 3week mark for one week. I'll bottle that Sunday. They are very slightly hazy when I bottle them,& carb/mellow nicely. Also crystal clear. Thanx for asking,though.
And by the way,I stir the wort to a froth in the brew kettle before adding to fermenter to top off. Then stir,swirl,shake,etc for a few mins to get it mixed & aerated to test before pitching.

 

[Rev2010]

I get it all uniform and dissolve before the boil.

How do you get it consistent in 15 mins?

When I do my late addition I shut of the heat, remove the pot from the burner, and slowly pour in the warmed up LME while using the whisk to mix it in. Haven't had any problems whatsoever with consistency. I always warm it up in the sink with hot water prior to adding it. It's a thick liquid but once it goes into the near boiling temperature water it dissolves in easily. Maybe the whisk also helps?


Rev.

 

[ed_brews_now]

OP thoughts.
I did a all Pilsen (Briess) extract brew. It got dark too. Now stepping back visual I remembered that it started getting darker when the hot break started happening.

Ah, it got darker because the white proteins reflecting white light fell out. That is what it must have been the cause of the wort going darker. It ain't a coors or a bud, so there is no rice adjunct to make it that light.

 

[QuaffableQuips]

So, I'm wondering if there's something else going on, possibly on the supply side. About a year ago I made an extract hefeweizen. It was wonderful and only marginally darker than a typical German import hefe. Most definitely orange and not at all brown. I didn't bother with late extract anything, and it was one of the best beers I've brewed.

Fast forward to last October. Same recipe and everything, only this one came out significantly darker, to the point where I was convinced the mail order supplier had shipped me amber LME by accident. The color of the resulting brew was decidedly dark brown, considerably darker than the orange-hued Weizen I'd made 7 months prior.

About three weeks ago I made my first AG hefe -- just bottled it this past weekend, and it is spot on for color.

After bottling the AG specimen, lacking time and sensing an impending need for a stockpile of Hefeweizen, I went down to the LHBS and bought some wheat LME (which he only recently started stocking) and the White Labs platinum strain (351). Brewed it using a late extract addition (about 2/3 of the LME in the last 15 mins), and it's about the same color in the carboy as I would expect a brown ale or an ESB to look.

Is it possible that something has happened on the supply side? Is anyone else experiencing darker-than-usual wheat LME-based beers?

 

[ellicit]

The last 2 Wheats I have done 1 used 6 Lbs of Wheat DME & WLP California V Ale yeast (Honey Wheat) and the other was 3.3 lbs of Wheat LME and 3 lbs. of Wheat DME & WLP Belgian Ale yeast (Belgian Wheat), both went fairly dark and brown during fermentation but after about 2 weeks and a finished fermentation they both turned a beautiful golden hue.

 

[Rev2010]

Brewed it using a late extract addition (about 2/3 of the LME in the last 15 mins), and it's about the same color in the carboy as I would expect a brown ale or an ESB to look.

You're judging from the carboy? You can't judge based on the color you see for 5 gallons in a carboy. Did you take a hydro reading? What was the color like then? Because it will be much lighter in the glass than it will be in a carboy. All my brews look darker in the fermenter because there's more for light to pass through thereby making it more opaque.

I've done extract 4 hefe's recently and all have come out pretty spot on to the SRM color swatch in Beersmith. Not a single one is brown, they are all yellow-orange golden like Franziskaner or a little bit more orange like Paulaner. Each recipe was slightly different.

I think one of the issues might be the recipe's people are doing. Are most doing all wheat DME recipe's? Of course wheat DME is 65% wheat and 35% barley on average but I usually also use a pound of pilsen or golden light DME as well. That also helps to create a lighter color if desired.

I did 2 beligan wit's this past Saturday (same recipe but two different yeasts). I did 5lb's of wheat LME and 1.75lbs pilsen DME. I'll let you guys know how those come out compared to Beersmith's color estimate once it's in the glass.


Rev.

 

[QuaffableQuips]

You're judging from the carboy? You can't judge based on the color you see for 5 gallons in a carboy. Did you take a hydro reading? What was the color like then? Because it will be much lighter in the glass than it will be in a carboy. All my brews look darker in the fermenter because there's more for light to pass through thereby making it more opaque.

Perhaps I spoke ambiguously. Naturally, the color in the carboy is a poor indicator of the ultimate color in the glass. As you say, 5 gallons will appear more opaque than 16 ounces. What I was trying to convey is that the Hefeweizen currently fermenting in the carboy more resembles my ESBs and brown ales when they were in carboys than it does my first Hefeweizen when it was in the same 5-gallon vessel. So it's probably a reasonable assumption that the final product here will turn out somewhat darker than what I'm aiming for. The deep color of the sample used for the gravity reading tends to confirm this.

It seems odd that three batches of the same recipe would yield one very nicely colored beer, one very dark beer, and a third that appears to be on track for darkness as well. The only change in process was moving from boiling all the extract for 60 minutes to a late addition procedure. That the full 60 minute boil would result in a considerably lighter beer than the late extract method seems counterintuitive. Which is why I was wondering about possible supply-side issues. Though this seems equally unlikely since the two dark batches have used LME from different suppliers.

My extract Hefeweizens have been 100% LME, with exception of an AG brew I did a few weeks ago (which, incidentally, looks to be spot on for color). I prefer a higher percentage of wheat in my hefes, so the 65/35 ratio of the wheat LME is perfect for my needs.

Let us know how your wits turn out.

 

[Rev2010]

Which is why I was wondering about possible supply-side issues. Though this seems equally unlikely since the two dark batches have used LME from different suppliers.

My extract Hefeweizens have been 100% LME

Have you tried doing some recipe's with DME rather than LME? I see a lot of talk about darkening in regard to LME, and many also say it happens with DME. To me though it makes most sense that LME would be most susceptible to darkening since the liquid is thick and heavy and would more likely get to rest and scorch on the bottom of the kettle. With my DME I whisk it in, as I do as well with the LME, but I know for a fact a lot of my LME does goes down to the bottom of the kettle. I also whisk along the kettle bottom to make sure none is sitting there scorching.

All my hefe's so far have been using DME and as mentioned the color is pretty spot on to Beersmith's color swatch. I've done an amber with LME, but that's obviously not something as color sensitive as a lighter colored beer but the color also seemed spot on to Beersmith. Since I used LME for the 2 belgians (being wheat LME is listed as lighter in color than DME) I am curious to see how they come out. I'll post up when I take the FG reading then again when it's in the glass.


Rev.