Brewmation: An amazing turnkey brewery (not a Brew-Magic vs B3, but with comparisons)

[ocluke]

Would this system be suitable for commercial applications? Seems like a great pilot system for a brewery to test new batches on, one keg at a time, without too much labor investment. You could set it and forget it and just go about your regular brew day.

Any thoughts?

I believe that is who this system is targeted for, as it is a competitor to the Brew-Magic and B3 systems, which are the most popular systems being used by craft commercial brewers for their test batches.

Well, that and homebrewers who want full automation and do not have the time or resources to build out their own system and controls. Of course, maybe one of the guys who own one might be better suited to answer this question. I've even seen the inventor chime in on Homebrewtalk before. You out there, Kevin?

 

[CenturyStanding]

I believe that is who this system is targeted for, as it is a competitor to the Brew-Magic and B3 systems, which are the most popular systems being used by craft commercial brewers for their test batches.

Well, that and homebrewers who want full automation and do not have the time or resources to build out their own system and controls. Of course, maybe one of the guys who own one might be better suited to answer this question. I've even seen the inventor chime in on Homebrewtalk before. You out there, Kevin?

Yeah, I mean, I'd assume that if you're hand building a brewing system for $5k, you're going to make sure it's solid for commercial use, I just want to be sure, especially because it isn't all stainless.

Also, does anyone know the overall dimensions of the rig? I don't see them on his site anywhere.

E-mails are pending with Kevin, but I'm impatient, so I'm posting it up here as well, haha.

 

[SankePankey]

56.5 "L x 26"H x 24"D. The tuns are 21" deep, so the D is + the control box. The BK outlet is 6" above the bottom.

It's commercial applicability is one of the reasons I bought it.
I can see a lot of benefits of this setup for a pico brewpubs vs a propane. Level of automation, repeatability, greater ease of install (vs trying to install a propane system indoors), etc make the system appealing for commercial applications. Also, barring the minor kinks, this system should offer the lowest learning curve to "nailing your process" faster than any other system, but that's IMO.

As far as the all stainless aspect, I have replaced almost everything w/ it's stainless counterpart to the cost of about I would say maybe $300+, which includes considerable triclamp upgrades. Kevin just isn't super snooty about no brass as me. I think he is putting an "all stainless" upgrade option together because of buyers like me.

Basically, if your idea of making "sure it's solid for commercial use" includes having sold 10k units already, then no. I think the benefits re: everything said thus far outweigh paying b3 of sabco much more money. IMO.

Kevin is proud of his rig but chooses to remain neutral re: posting on the forum in response to fodder (good or bad). I can respect that. Not that I'm his spokesman or anything, but we've hung out now enough for me to know that.

 

[bobbytuck]

I don't know about the Brewmation specifically, but I can't believe how much more enjoyable brewing is on an electric versus propane system. I have my own eHERMS (but looked at the Brewmation very closely) -- and the electric has really made a difference. I mean, I can control the boil level -- from a savage boil to a calm, rolling boil -- but it's also much cheaper (for me, at least) than getting the f$&*$ing bottles of propane and worry about running out propane (and stocking up on spare tanks, etc. etc.)

I'm surprised more folks don't embrace electric structures -- even more surprised that both B3 and Sabco don't offer electric versions of their setups (or upgraded setups with electric-only.)

The only downside was the one time expense of installing a 220V GFI outlet with the proper NEMA receptacle -- but once that was taken care of (and a special circuit that I can turn off after the brew day) it's pretty much good-to-go.

 

[SankePankey]

I don't know about the Brewmation specifically, but I can't believe how much more enjoyable brewing is on an electric versus propane system. I have my own eHERMS (but looked at the Brewmation very closely) -- and the electric has really made a difference. I mean, I can control the boil level -- from a savage boil to a calm, rolling boil -- but it's also much cheaper (for me, at least) than getting the f$&*$ing bottles of propane and worry about running out propane (and stocking up on spare tanks, etc. etc.)

I'm surprised more folks don't embrace electric structures -- even more surprised that both B3 and Sabco don't offer electric versions of their setups (or upgraded setups with electric-only.)

The only downside was the one time expense of installing a 220V GFI outlet with the proper NEMA receptacle -- but once that was taken care of (and a special circuit that I can turn off after the brew day) it's pretty much good-to-go.

Yes this is what I experience with the brewmation. I observe for a possible boil over at the start of a boil (which is prompted by a beeping alarm) at the predetermined heat level I have set at the beginning of the brew session. Adjusting the rheostat + or - shows an almost surgical immediate response to the vigor of the boil. I imagine predicting the heat level (by just recording the number in your brew notes) for a respective pre-boil gravity would become real easy (since higher gravities would make for more boil over potential).

Cheaper, no doubt - less than $5/session depending on your power prices. Not to mention more convenient re: replacing tanks. Also a huge reason I bought. I really chose to limit replace-ables. I even use steam to sanitize so I can cut down on PBW/Starsan usage.

As far as the GFI, I got an in-line GFI on the extension cord for $77, and so the only other expense was getting a 220V single phase plug with a 30 A breaker installed (like $30). Got it off ebay and had it direct mailed to Kevin for install during the assembly of my system. The $100+ for that is why people look for used spa breaker boxes on ebay. Just make sure it's 30A at least for the brewmation (which uses 26 amps max).

 

[SankePankey]

As far as more people embracing electric.... Many people that have build awesome propane rigs for themselves (some of which I offered to pay for duplicates) have commented on this forum that if they had to do it all over again they would do an eRig and build indoors (OK, less so on the indoors part, but). I have seen none say, "I wish I hadn't done an eRig, I'm going back to propane". Maybe electric doesn't make sense for 7bbl brewery, but then again a brew-magic is a bit like "honey, I shrunk the brewery" wouldn't you say... sort of a miniature model steam-engine, so to speak?

 

[ocluke]

The only downside was the one time expense of installing a 220V GFI outlet with the proper NEMA receptacle...

Do any of you who have upgraded from 110 to 220 have a fair estimate of what this takes? It is my biggest deterrent to going all electric. I'm stuck with 110V.

My electrical panel looks like this, if it matters:

Diagram photo
Panel photo

 

[SankePankey]

As far as I know, 220V single phase is the same thing as 2 X 110V. So, as long as you have 2 free slots in your panel next to each other, you should be alright.

Am I right folks?

Now 220V 3 phase power is another thing entirely. But the brewmation is single phase.

I just bought a 30A 220V breaker at HD, $15 or so, and popped it in a panel just like yours and I was good to go (Since I got the GFI built into my brewmation-see page 4 of this thread). You can get a GFI breaker instead, but since I don't own where I am, I rent, I just decided to make everything as mobile as possible. It was virtually the same price to get the in line GFI as a GFI breaker box.

 

[limulus]

We installed a hot tub a couple of years ago. I think it was actually 240v and required a pretty heavy gauge of wire and a special breaker outside. I spent over $500 for that hookup. It was done by professionals and they did a superb job. These days you may be able to get a better deal.

 

[SankePankey]

If you know what you're buying you can definitely save money by getting the materials yourself and paying for just labor. My hookup was a basic washer dryer hookup since I BYO'd the GFI. 1hrs work or less.

Just write down the brand of your breaker box before you go to HD. They're all different. Other things you'll need are a box to mount and heavy gauge wire.

 

[bobbytuck]

We installed a hot tub a couple of years ago. I think it was actually 240v and required a pretty heavy gauge of wire and a special breaker outside. I spent over $500 for that hookup. It was done by professionals and they did a superb job. These days you may be able to get a better deal.

My whole electric installation -- including an extra 110V outlet, a single 220V outlet, weather-proof boxes for both outlets, GFI, and a shut-off at the circuit box (so I could unplug everything without any current running) -- was about $850. This included installation by a licensed local electrician who primarily works with commercial setups and was super careful with this particular installation (because we'd had him do previous work when he was still doing residential work).

Expensive -- but SP is right above: there's no way in hell I'll go back to propane. Electric is cheap, easy, and convenient.

 

[halucin8]

I don't know about the Brewmation specifically, but I can't believe how much more enjoyable brewing is on an electric versus propane system.

I couldn't agree with you more. I brewed on a propane fired three-tier system for 3 or 4 years before buying the Brewmation. Here in NC, the humidity can get a little crazy and I found that I brewed less and less due to the heat in the garage produced by the burners. Last summer, I had to stop brewing altogether for a while due to almost passing out.

I received my Brewmation in mid-May and have already brewed 16 batches totaling 1 gallon shy of 100 gallons. Is that legal to say out loud? I could feasibly produce enough beer for a small brewpub. I just need more fermentation chamber space. With 275 pounds of grain on the way, I see no signs of slowing down anytime soon.

Prost.

 

[Yambor44]

I can see the draw of the electric and have toyed with the idea many times. P-J Muth is ALWAYS trying to convert my current Brutus 10 system every time we talk on the phone!

However, easy and convenient I can agree with , but cheap I cannot. I don't know about where the rest of you live but here in Ocala Florida my light bill already runs just shy of $700.00 a month. That's why I use natural gas.

 

[kappclark]

IHowever, easy and convenient I can agree with , but cheap I cannot. I don't know about where the rest of you live but here in Ocala Florida my light bill already runs just shy of $700.00 a month. That's why I use natural gas.

I bet you live at an airport, right ?

 

[Yambor44]

I bet you live at an airport, right ?

No were near one. Seriously?

 

[SankePankey]

OK, so I checked and New York has much higher electric prices than Florida, unless you have a special circumstance in Ocala. (You growing something down there?)

Anyhoo, in yours or my case it would be far cheaper than gas if you calculate it. If you can prove your point with math, please do- I'd like to know. From where I'm sitting it's only a fraction of the cost of gas and I pay more for power.

Average price per kWh for New York is $.19 and for Florida is $.11.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

OK, I just said the same thing like 3 times... sorry

 

[limulus]

I can see the draw of the electric and have toyed with the idea many times. P-J Muth is ALWAYS trying to convert my current Brutus 10 system every time we talk on the phone!

However, easy and convenient I can agree with , but cheap I cannot. I don't know about where the rest of you live but here in Ocala Florida my light bill already runs just shy of $700.00 a month. That's why I use natural gas.

Wow $700/month!!?? I live in suburban Atlanta in a 2 story house with a finished basement. We have three AC zones with three compressors and our bill in the hellish summer is in the mid $300s.

 

[Yambor44]

OK, so I checked and New York has much higher electric prices than Florida, unless you have a special circumstance in Ocala. (You growing something down there?)

Anyhoo, in yours or my case it would be far cheaper than gas if you calculate it. If you can prove your point with math, please do- I'd like to know. From where I'm sitting it's only a fraction of the cost of gas and I pay more for power.

Average price per kWh for New York is $.19 and for Florida is $.11.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

OK, I just said the same thing like 3 times... sorry

Here is a quote from an article at the following link:

http://www.ocala.com/article/20091014/ARTICLES/910141004

As anyone who buys electric from the city of Ocala's utility knows, prices exploded in September 2008, making them the highest in the state. Today, Ocala's rates are near the middle of the pack.

"Our rates have leveled," Assistant City Manager Matt Brower said.

The $0.163646 per kilowatt-hour rate, or $196.38, in September 2008 fell to $0.134526 per kwh, or $161.43, in October for 1,200 kwh of residential usage.

Rates dropped again in November to $0.130510 per kwh, or $156.61.

That rate has not changed since November.


At the very top of the article just under the heading it does read that natural gas prices are higher.

I don't have have math to support my theory, just my experience. In the summer (I have a natural gas heating system for winter) my gas bill is in the $60 range brewing an average of 2 times a cycle. That includes my hot water heater and my gas stove/oven. Both which of course are used daily.

My pots would probably only hold a 4500 watt element, so if I had 2 in my BK and one each in my HLT and MT can someone do a cost analysis? Sorry I'm a bug man not a mathematician. Average 60 minute mash and boil.

 

[Yambor44]

Wow $700/month!!?? I live in suburban Atlanta in a 2 story house with a finished basement. We have three AC zones with three compressors and our bill in the hellish summer is in the mid $300s.

We do have several (several) electric items that cause this. However, a case in point is that I shut down the breaker and drained our hot tub this summer and my bill went up, by about $60.00.

Another case, I had 2 daughters move out at the same time a few years back (that's 2-4 less showers a day, a load of clothes less a day, less blow drying and hair crimping or straightening, 2 less people in the house period) and my electric and water (both with same company, same bill) went ....UP.

The "math" just doesn't add up.

 

[Yambor44]

Also, I have had them come to my house (after the aforementioned daughters moving out and bill going up episode) and everything "checked out" as "normal".

 

[JonW]

Average price per kWh for New York is $.19 and for Florida is $.11.

I don't think the cost of therms is the driving factor on which to use. I think people may choose electric over propane gas as a cost effective alternative, but when it comes to natural gas, I think your choice should be made based on convenience or how you want to brew. Is a gas hookup readily available or easily installed versus running new electric and adding breakers? Do you routinely brew outside or do you want to be inside? There are so many other factors that come into play versus just the cost of heating your brew.

For myself, I'm interested in the use of electric brewing, but I'll probably just look at using a RIMS tube for holding my mash temps and use natural gas for everything else. I'm paying $.31 per kilowatt in SoCal and there's no way that is cheaper than gas. (Yes, the beginning tiers are only $.11 per KW, but I'm in tier 5 usage which is the highest and adding any additional usage would be billed at that rate). I currently use a 3 burner natural gas brewing rig that I roll right up to the front of my garage and plug into a natural gas QD. It probably only cost me about $40 in fittings to add the QD.

 

[drez77]

Also, I have had them come to my house (after the aforementioned daughters moving out and bill going up episode) and everything "checked out" as "normal".

Interesting. They utility should be able to put recording voltmeters on your house service so you can chart voltage and amperage. Usually a good way to see at what time something is pulling a lot of amps. As certain equipment starts to fail they will pull more current.

Okay back on topic now

 

[beerymcgee]

Hey Brewmation owners -

I'm considering buying this system, but am a little concerned about the amount of break material and hop matter that would end up in my fermenter (and worse, my plate chiller).

I see SankePankey has a little standpipe-bazooka-screen type mod to help with this.

• Sanke, how's that working for you?
• Anyone else done anything similar or different to filter/block break and hop matter?
• Has anyone tried the Blichmann Hop Blocker for filtering out break/hops? It seems like it might work, if the size is right...

 

[SankePankey]

Hey Brewmation owners -

I'm considering buying this system, but am a little concerned about the amount of break material and hop matter that would end up in my fermenter (and worse, my plate chiller).

I see SankePankey has a little standpipe-bazooka-screen type mod to help with this.

• Sanke, how's that working for you?
• Anyone else done anything similar or different to filter/block break and hop matter?
• Has anyone tried the Blichmann Hop Blocker for filtering out break/hops? It seems like it might work, if the size is right...

Well, what's cool about the boil kettle setup is that the drain is at the very bottom, unlike most keggle systems which rely on a side output and well implemented bazooka screen positioned to drain the entirety of the volume. In my setup, there is still a drain at the very bottom, so you will in theory drain everything. The bazooka screen is there to aid my whirlpooling.

This is not necessarily what I am experiencing just yet but I'm getting there. Without a whirlpool, the break and hop matter doesn't clog the drain enough to inhibit a gravity transfer at the end with minimal trub. With the whirlpool and a 100% pellet bill, I am getting a trickle out of the kettle from a packed cake of hop matter. In my brew this past weekend, the bazooka screen was completely covered with hop matter even at that height. So I'm thinking it needs to have some more copper wetted to give it more height but stay out of the way of the elements. I'm thinking more of like a field goal post looking thing. I don't know yet, but I'm trying to avoid the hop bag scenario.

 

[beerymcgee]

Yeah, seems like whirlpooling isn't really your friend when the drain is in the center. That's kind of my concern.

Interesting, though - sounds like you're not really getting too much break into the fermenter...just clogging.

I wonder if you'd have better results if you just let it settle, instead of whirlpooling. That way the break and stuff wouldn't collect in the middle. Hopefully, it would just settle sort of evenly across the bottom of the kettle...

 

[GillandCo]

Longest Post in a row by the same person I have ever seen in a thread...I didn't read any and was hoping for a picture...However I will check out the site and if interested will be back. I Drink to you typing that long A** book in this thread...You are more dedicated than I am, And Im looking forward to reading it when IM on the Toilet...

 

[SankePankey]

Yeah, seems like whirlpooling isn't really your friend when the drain is in the center. That's kind of my concern.

Interesting, though - sounds like you're not really getting too much break into the fermenter...just clogging.

I wonder if you'd have better results if you just let it settle, instead of whirlpooling. That way the break and stuff wouldn't collect in the middle. Hopefully, it would just settle sort of evenly across the bottom of the kettle...

No, not too much break in the fermenter at all. The snot stays in the kettle. I do get enough little specs to worry about in a plate chiller without putting a filter before it (the stainless scrubby method maybe) but nothing much.
Yes, this is what I meant. Just letting it settle is acceptable for a gravity drain- and I still don't get that much trub in the fermenter.
Whirlpooling with a drain in the center would be OK if I had enough heigh to the bazooka that it wouldn't get completely covered. Work in progress.

Im looking forward to reading it when IM on the Toilet...

Don't be as impatient with your bowel movement. You'll blow an o-ring. But do let us know if that happens. And post pics please.

 

[SankePankey]

Hey Halucin8-

Would you mind sharing your chilling routine with us? I see you use a plate chiller mounted below the boil kettle. I'm assuming you gravity drain thru the plate chiller and use the HLT recirc to circulate ice water. Is that right?

I'm not happy with my chilling routine just yet (immersion chiller - it's just too small for 15 gal - takes like 45 mins) and was thinking of:

1) ...going the plate chiller route and skip the whirlpool. Cleaning out the plate chiller with a HLT recirc of Oxy is probably very easy, convenient. Maybe even more convenient than cleaning off an immersion chiller every time. This way you don't leave out the break material though.

2) ...doing a whirlpool thru the plate chiller, sending it back into the kettle to chill the whole volume fast and act as a self-filter for trub. Wouldn't have to get the "Beef-Cake" plate chiller, could go a little smaller. Chilling the whole thing down that fast would be probably as good as using a hop-back.

3) ...doing either and using my 50' IC for a prechiller. Thing is, I want to have hot water in the HLT for clean-up, not ice-water. So was thinking of using tap and putting my IC in a pot with ice-water for a pre-chiller.


I have yet to get serious hop character because my chilling is too long.




{And... hey everyone- sorry for the infini-posts.}

 

[beerymcgee]

I, for one, appreciate the infini-posts. Very helpful!

 

[halucin8]

Hey Halucin8-

Would you mind sharing your chilling routine with us? I see you use a plate chiller mounted below the boil kettle. I'm assuming you gravity drain thru the plate chiller and use the HLT recirc to circulate ice water. Is that right?

I was gravity feeding my plate chiller and using my well water to chill with and the output going into the pool (no waste). I could usually get the temp down to around 78 using that method. I was using hop bags at the time. I wanted to get away from using the bags, so I tried not using them and the chiller clogged almost instantly. What a pain in the ass that was. You definitely have to use hop bags if you're using a plate chiller. I was looking at designing some sort of "hopstopper" using a 9" false bottom in the kettle with some stainless mesh wrapped around it.

The last time I brewed, I used my immersion chiller with ice water in the HLT as the system was designed. It worked pretty well, so I will try this method a few more times and see what happens. If unsuccessful with the immersion, I will probably switch to a Chilzilla chiller which has a much larger size flow diameter and would be less susceptible to hop debris or design the above mentioned hopstopper.

I personally don't worry about trub and hops in the fermenter. Not bragging or anything, but I've won ribbons in the only three competitions I've entered including an NHBC Gold Medal, so I must be doing something right. I did notice less gunk in the fermenter when I immersion chilled on my last session. I think a lot of the mess settles to the bottom of the kettle and since the kettle has a nice, large, mostly flat bottom, it doesn't make it into the fermenter.

As far as having hot water in the HLT to clean with, just heat it up. I have a hot water hose in my brewing area to clean with, so this is not an issue for me.

Did I cover everything? I have a bit of a buzz!!

Prost.