Brewing beer without malt AKA Maltless Brewing

[CourtHouseBrewing]

Thanks for pointing me to the new thread. It is always great to hear & see how you are doing. I am so inspired by your knowledge and patience that I’m sure you will have a beer to be proud of soon. Be well.

 

[Bamsdealer]

Agreed. This is fascinating. Good luck and I can't wait to hear how this turns out.

 

[Xier]

The bacteria have made their first appearance!

 

[Xier]

While this is fermenting away, I have a bit of a plan as to what to do next. I am thinking to brew three beers using only 100% of a base rolt(TM haha) in each. The first two will of-course be my interpretation of pale wheat and barley malts, respectively. The third will consist purely of black rice. The same hop variety, mash and boil schedule will be used by each. The original, as well as final, specific gravity readings will be taken and compared. If I intend to keep brewing in this way, I imagine it will help to know exactly how each grain works when rolting.

And furthermore:

From this day forward, controlled rotting for the purpose of creating malt-like fermentables shall be known as rolting and the finished malt-like product shall be referred to as rolt, so sayeth me.

 

[Xier]

So, I am back from Beijing and have bought some hop pellets! I am going to need some help though as I am not really sure how to spread these all out. Also, I could not find any wheat so, for this first run, I am going to use foxtail millet as my third grain. Let me break this all down:

6 lbs of barley
6 lbs of black rice
6 lbs of foxtail millet
44 grams of Saaz pellets
44 grams of Nugget pellets
48 grams of Qingdao (similar to cascade) pellets
3 2.5 gallon fermenters
Yeast harvested from a Blue Star wheat beer bottle

The plan is to use a combination of 12 grams of each hop variety and a single grain type for each fermenter. I decided to use a commercial yeast in order to eliminate that as a variable in these tests.

I was wondering if you guys had any ideas as to how to add the hops during the boil.

How does adding .105 oz of Nugget at 90, adding .32oz of Qingdao and .14oz of Saaz at 15 minutes till finish and then finally adding .14oz of Qingdao and .32oz of Saaz with 3 minutes left sound?

Edit: Changed after playing with Brewtarget

 

[dawgmatic]

Sub scribed

^Not sure about the AA% of the Quindao, and I'm not sure how bitter you're looking to make this beer, but this one's going to have low IBU's. I would raise the nugget to 0.25-0.5 oz.

Also, is the current beer fermenting with normal yeast now, or are you just using the bacteria, and how is it progressing?

 

[neosapien]

man, this is one of the coolest, most bizarre things I've ever seen or read. You simply have to post updates. This is mad scientist territory here!

 

[JohnnySardonic]

This is awesome and inspiring! Keep the pics coming. My brew buddies and I are stoked to read about how it turns out.

 

[neosapien]

This is awesome and inspiring! Keep the pics coming. My brew buddies and I are stoked to read about how it turns out.

no joke. i've been talking about this thread all day long. I'm stoked. :rockin:

 

[neosapien]

While this is fermenting away, I have a bit of a plan as to what to do next. I am thinking to brew three beers using only 100% of a base rolt(TM haha) in each. The first two will of-course be my interpretation of pale wheat and barley malts, respectively. The third will consist purely of black rice. The same hop variety, mash and boil schedule will be used by each. The original, as well as final, specific gravity readings will be taken and compared. If I intend to keep brewing in this way, I imagine it will help to know exactly how each grain works when rolting.

And furthermore:

From this day forward, controlled rotting for the purpose of creating malt-like fermentables shall be known as rolting and the finished malt-like product shall be referred to as rolt, so sayeth me.

man, you're weird as well, but so freakin' cool. this is way inspiring.

 

[mr_bell]

I find this to be really intriguing. Keep up the photos and updates. Here's hoping you create something completely original and delicious to boot. If I could get to China I would be glad to taste test it!

 

[Xier]

I apologize for disappearing for so long. I have been pretty busy in the real world and haven’t had the chance to get on here. Anyway, let me tally up my success so far.

The initial beer has a horrible taste. It seems that some unwanted non-Saccharomyces yeast may have contaminated it during the initial period with the bacteria. Basically, it tastes like fingernail polish remover.

In the second batch, the black rice became contaminated during the rolting with wild Saccharomyces. I thought that it may still be salvageable and could possibly make a decent low alcoholic beer. Unfortunately, the bag broke during BIAB and it all ended up getting tossed.

The third batch of the millet is turning out fantastically well. It has a very very mellow flavour but the complexities of the palate are amazing. I siphoned a bottle full out from the fermenter and shared it with four of my friends. They all really enjoyed it, even with it being so green. The only complaint was that the taste was too light for one of their palates. The mistake with this one is that I did not separate the trub from the liquid after the boil. Half of what is in the fermenter is trub and the colour of the drink is quite hazy.

The last batch with barley is coming along beautifully. After the initial boil, I thought it was ruined as the taste was so damned bitter. I added a little extra hop to this one to give it more punch and was afraid that I had overdone it. Well, now it is fermenting away and I finally took a sample today. The taste is spot on for a Budweiser or something similar, which means that it is a complete failure! Of-course, the reality is that I am just happy that it turned out beer-like. I am sure my friends are going to enjoy it when it is finished. The colour is very clear, nearly white.

Soon, one of my friends will come over and we plan to do a brew session together. I am hoping that he will be able to record it all on video so that I can then share the whole process with all of you. My plan is to create a Belgian witbier.

 

[nasa258e]

I apologize for disappearing for so long. I have been pretty busy in the real world and haven’t had the chance to get on here. Anyway, let me tally up my success so far.

The initial beer has a horrible taste. It seems that some unwanted non-Saccharomyces yeast may have contaminated it during the initial period with the bacteria. Basically, it tastes like fingernail polish remover.

In the second batch, the black rice became contaminated during the rolting with wild Saccharomyces. I thought that it may still be salvageable and could possibly make a decent low alcoholic beer. Unfortunately, the bag broke during BIAB and it all ended up getting tossed.

The third batch of the millet is turning out fantastically well. It has a very very mellow flavour but the complexities of the palate are amazing. I siphoned a bottle full out from the fermenter and shared it with four of my friends. They all really enjoyed it, even with it being so green. The only complaint was that the taste was too light for one of their palates. The mistake with this one is that I did not separate the trub from the liquid after the boil. Half of what is in the fermenter is trub and the colour of the drink is quite hazy.

The last batch with barley is coming along beautifully. After the initial boil, I thought it was ruined as the taste was so damned bitter. I added a little extra hop to this one to give it more punch and was afraid that I had overdone it. Well, now it is fermenting away and I finally took a sample today. The taste is spot on for a Budweiser or something similar, which means that it is a complete failure! Of-course, the reality is that I am just happy that it turned out beer-like. I am sure my friends are going to enjoy it when it is finished. The colour is very clear, nearly white.

Soon, one of my friends will come over and we plan to do a brew session together. I am hoping that he will be able to record it all on video so that I can then share the whole process with all of you. My plan is to create a Belgian witbier.

It's not beer

 

[Genjin]

It's not beer

Why not? It has grain, hops an yeast.

 

[pelipen]

I'd like to see more pics of the process, and final results.

 

[Jsmith82]

*joining the thread*

Interesting stuff, eager to see more..

 

[nasa258e]

Why not? It has grain, hops an yeast.

Even before hops, malted barley has been a requirement for beer

 

[Bamsdealer]

For those who haven't followed xier's process from the first thread, you'll find this worthwhile...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/my-first-brew-aka-brewing-nothing-pics-299885/

 

[fredthecat]

It's not beer

yeah, find this thread kinda dubious. and going to need better tasting notes than "like budweiser" to describe an alcohol made in a radically different way from beer

 

[pelipen]

Maybe by archaic German former law it's not beer, but most definitions of beer do not require malted barley. Beer results from the fermentation of sugars created by the saccharification of starches, mainly from cereal grains. Rice is included in this category.

What he is doing is not radical, it's quite traditional in asia. Budweiser is beer and has adjuncts. Kiuchi brewery in japan makes a beer which is predominantly red rice.

Malting develops enzymes. You could also provide enzymes to unmalted cereal grains which we do all the time when we say a grain needs to be mashed with something of sufficient diastatic power for conversion. Aka, it needs enzymes.

He's making a type of beer, based on precedent.

 

[pelipen]

Even before hops, malted barley has been a requirement for beer

So all the folks on here who brewed a 100% wheat beer made what exactly?

Reinheitsgebot is deservedly dead. Life is too short to stick to one grain.

 

[ChickenArise]

If we're being extremely pedantic, we'd need to get into the history of 'ale' vs. 'beer' (the latter being hopped ale), but come on people..!

 

[cheezydemon3]

What precedence are you following that suggests using fungus?

Yeast is fungus.

 

[bk0]

This reminds me that I never, ever want to go to China.

 

[JohnnySardonic]

I don't see what all the fuss about it "not being beer" is... about. It may seem completely foreign to those of us in the west, but he seems to be making a traditional Chinese "beer." To question its beeriness seems erudite. To quote my favorite YouTube comment from an unknown user: "you don't have to be a d-bag to like craft brews... but it sure seems to help." Let's not be That guy. Why not applaud his herculean efforts to brew something that he can enjoy with his friends, without judging whether or not his brew falls under someone's overly strict - and IMHO antiquated - definition of "beer."

(most quotation marks I've ever used in six sentences)

 

[pelipen]

This reminds me that I never, ever want to go to China.

Oh come on... You haven't lived until you've tried that rocket fuel they call gaoliang and woke up without knowing how you got to the hotel.

Back to topic:
I myself am working on three bastardizations of traditional soju/makgeolli, and there are process similarities, so I'm keen on this thread. I don't want the OP to be put off by "beer" semantics.

 

[bk0]

No, don't get me wrong, I think what OP is doing is interesting and neat. I just have 0% interest in ever drinking the stuff.

 

[fredthecat]

I don't see what all the fuss about it "not being beer" is... about. It may seem completely foreign to those of us in the west, but he seems to be making a traditional Chinese "beer." To question its beeriness seems erudite. To quote my favorite YouTube comment from an unknown user: "you don't have to be a d-bag to like craft brews... but it sure seems to help." Let's not be That guy. Why not applaud his herculean efforts to brew something that he can enjoy with his friends, without judging whether or not his brew falls under someone's overly strict - and IMHO antiquated - definition of "beer."

(most quotation marks I've ever used in six sentences)

my thing with this is based on drinking lots of alcohol that use these kind of bacteria(yeasts? ?) to squeeze out sugar from grain. i have a feeling that the FG is going to be below 1.000 and will have very different flavours from a beer.

if he's tasted it he really ought to give better notes than "spot on for budweiser" (not likely imho). in the past there have been drinks made from a mix of barley, wheat and rice (makkeoli), that use the "red rice" yeast to get out sugar in a kind of mash. of course this person is doing a different process, but makkeoli is a million miles from beer even though its made with common beer ingredients (though not hops)

 

[Xier]

Step 1:
Choose your grain.



Any starch containing grain could be used, this is rice.

Step 2:
Infuse your grains with water. I imagine that you could soak the grains, but I opt to steam them.

Step 3:
Put your soaked grains into a traditional rolting chamber.



Cover and allow to cool.

 

[pelipen]

my thing with this is based on drinking lots of alcohol that use these kind of bacteria(yeasts? ?) to squeeze out sugar from grain. i have a feeling that the FG is going to be below 1.000 and will have very different flavours from a beer.

if he's tasted it he really ought to give better notes than "spot on for budweiser" (not likely imho). in the past there have been drinks made from a mix of barley, wheat and rice (makkeoli), that use the "red rice" yeast to get out sugar in a kind of mash. of course this person is doing a different process, but makkeoli is a million miles from beer even though its made with common beer ingredients (though not hops)

I agree with some of this, but not all. It's really not that important to me. The FG is not necessarily below 1.000 but could easily drop there. A lot of recipes for these types of rice beverages use an unfermentable sugar to provide sweetness and a little mouthfeel. Other factors will also play a large role.

Makgeolli (and sake for that matter) are closer cousins to beer than wine. Gelatinization of a cereal grain, converting starches to sugar in a mash-like process, fermenting by fungus, are shared traits. Wine is the fermentation of existing sugars from fruits (assuming you don't up the gravity with sugar). "Rice wine" is more the context of "Barley wine" and refers the high ABV. Makgeolli is typically in the 5-7% ABV range making it more a rice beer. I had beers over there that I swear were 90% rice... I can't say I enjoyed them either. Zero flavor and the color of white grape juice.

What would be interesting is to hop makgeolli it with an understated hop, for preservation and flavor. You would then have a cloudy, ultra pale ale with a bit of a lambic bite (and I admittedly use the terms loosely). I think this will be experiment #4, and is very close to what the OP is doing.

To me all this falls into "sparkling wine isn't really champagne (protected word)", "Kolsch can only be made in Germany", "Benz invented the automobile, so everything else is a knockoff"