Brewery Etiquette

[ColoHox]

A similar thing happened with one of the breweries here. The founders were hombrewers, so they had the brewing knowledge, but the jump to commercial brewing is pretty big.

They really didn't have their process down very well at first, whether that was scaling recipes, or large-scale production issues, or whatever, they still sold their first few batches.

I get it though. On one hand, money is just flying out the door in those first few months, so any form of revenue is helpful. One the other hand, they garnered a terrible reputation in those first few months for their terrible beer.

The BA president said that all the new breweries opening without any QC program are hurting the whole industry. The competition is stiff, especially in CO. If you are going to start a venture like this, figure your process out first before selling bad beer. It is too late to ride the coat-tails of the craftbeer boom; if you are going to make it you better be good from the start.

 

[indymedic]

The BA president said that all the new breweries opening without any QC program are hurting the whole industry. The competition is stiff, especially in CO. If you are going to start a venture like this, figure your process out first before selling bad beer. It is too late to ride the coat-tails of the craftbeer boom; if you are going to make it you better be good from the start.

👍 Part of there business plan and budget should be a dump fund. Any respectable Business owner or Brewer should want to put out the best product on the market no matter what it takes.

 

[ColoHox]

👍 Part of there business plan and budget should be a dump fund. Any respectable Business owner or Brewer should want to put out the best product on the market no matter what it takes.

I don't know, I'm kind of conflicted about this. Yes, a cushion of operating capital should be able to cover a bad batch or two. That is just prudent business.

No one wants to dump their beer. Most startup breweries are at the 7-10bbl level, which is 180-250 gallons. That is a lot of time, labor, and raw material cost to go down the drain. The easiest fix, which requires some humility (which, as mentioned in other posts, may be an issue) is to ask another pro-brewer for help. The brewers in this industry are so willing to help that NOT asking about recipes or process issues is just trouble.

Sure, though, if you have sought out help and done everything you can to make good beer, sometimes a batch is just bad and it has to go.

 

[bobeer]

I'd ask them if they welcome constructive criticism. If they say, "yes of course" then just say you're just trying to provide some feedback on their product. Say you're learning to brew also and these are the things that could make their product even better than it already is.

I find if you give a complement right off the bat it helps with lightening up the conversation. With brewing it's all about making your beer better or making beer the best you can make it. As long as you're constructive with your comments I don't really see any issues with being honest. It's either that or they go out of business for making sub-par beer.

 

[paperairplane]

The real question is are they making the beer they want to be making?

There's a very successful winery near me that makes a fantastic business on selling just awful wine to the wine version of the BMC crowd. I just don't go there.

I would probably just grab the brewer and ask him about process - to see what he's doing. If there was something odd or obviously wrong, I might comment.

On the other hand, I've pulled out of competitions and fundraising events where I was going to serve beer because I wasn't happy with my product. If it doesn't meet my standards, I won't serve it.

 

[drksky]

I've gotten to know the main brewer at a local brewpub and regularly talk to him when I go there for dinner. While I might not call him a "friend", I feel comfortable discussing the beer that's on tap and pointing out what I perceive as flaws or asking if that's what they were going for.

I think anyone who genuinely wants to put out a good product and improve would be happy with some gentle constructive criticism.

 

[beernutz]

OP is there a reason you're keeping the name of the brewery secret? If you really are in a small town in Colorado it is unlikely you're going to influence their sales by naming them. However, it is possible some other HBT members possibly with BJCP experience might have tried their beer so as to confirm your initial impressions.

My former father-in-law, I'll call him Mr. Know-it-all, opened a restaurant here in Mobile many years ago. He had zero restaurant experience (either owning or working in one) and proceeded to fail in short order.

Thinking he'd learned something a few years later he opened another smaller restaurant which also failed because just like in the first venture his food was marginal, the location was not well-chosen, he didn't advertise enough, and he did not have the necessary capital to survive the start up.

My point is that some people make dumb or ignorant mistakes and do not learn from them. Someone opening a brewery with no brewing experience and who hires people who similarly have no experience is likely not going to listen to anyone else anyway. Even failure may not slow them down as was the case with Mr. Know-it-all.

 

[VT-NAV]

I'm going to go against the grain of the thread on this one. Unless you genuinely think the brewer is unaware that his beer is excessively cloudy, I'd keep the opinion to myself. I guarantee you're not the only one who has or will criticize the professional brewer for perceived flaws in his beer. Even within the context of constructive criticism, I can imagine it would be very frustrating to have faux-connoisseurs offering unsolicited feedback and advice a few times a day. If the beer snobs are already eviscerating them with poor reviews, they likely already have a good idea of their problems.

Since you stated that you have no knowledge of commercial brewing techniques, a conversation wouldn't really accomplish anything other than rubbing the brewer's nose in it again (albeit gently and with good intentions).

Is your desire to talk about the problems with the beer more out of a desire to help with constructive feedback or is it to confirm your intuition that things have been going poorly in the brewery?

 

[hunter_le five]

Too many good breweries out there to waste any time worrying about the bad ones.

The craft market is booming. Perhaps even overcrowded. If you can't put out a decent beer, then maybe it's time to just close your doors.

One of our local breweries has maybe one decent beer, and pretty much everything else I've tried that they put out has been irredeemable crap. I always like to buy local, but I've got plenty of other options. They've pretty much lost my business permanently.

 

[QuadConPana]

I cant sample there because the "trendy" crowd annoys me...

Why waste your hard-earned dollars on mediocre beer?

I've had plenty of crappy beer at breweries. But it's not my job to help fix it.

First, unless the "trendy" people are intentionally doing something to make you feel unwelcome, get over it. Usually they are just people who lack the self confidence to "be themselves" and are trying to fit in.

As for whose "job" it is to fix their beers. That's not even an issue. The beautiful thing about craft beer is that it is a community. Unless your small town is in Oregon or North Carolina, I'm going to guess that there aren't a lot of breweries around. And, it sounds like these people didn't realize what they were getting into. Read Sam Calagione's book. There were people in the area who were excited that a brewpub was opening in Rehobeth who gave freely of their time to make it a success. So my advice is:

• Start drinking there and get to know them.
• Ask questions about what they are going for in each beer.
• Give respectful feedback.
• Pose suggestions as questions like " Do you use Irish Moss?"

I was a Starbucks manager almost 15 years ago when there were a lot of places that didn't have Starbucks. Back then, coffee shops were the hot new business, and a lot of people got into it thinking it would be easy. I remember walking into places who were using food service coffee to make espresso, because they didn't have a clue. It would be sad if these people have mortgaged their house because they heard brewing was a growth industry, even though they have no experience.

Show them what this community is all about, and see if you can help.

 

[GRBC]

Here's my feedback: 1) Most beer being brewed today tastes best when fresh and gets worse as it ages, 2) Many IPAs are being served "cloudy". Generally from hop and grist related treatment & not yeast.

I would not approach them suggesting they "age" or "clarify" their beer or risk sounding uninformed.

I would give it 2 months and go back & see if the beer is more to your liking. Also, if it is still packed in a couple of months, they are probably OK with their choices.

 

[motobrewer]

at the same time, i recently went to a brewpub where i thought the beers were really boring and uninteresting and watery, but the food was good, the place was jam-packed on an average thursday at 11:30 in the morning, and i hear it's sro on the weekends and when the local nba and minor league baseball team are playing.

Point is: If the tills are ringing and customers are coming back, who cares what i think?

wsb?

 

[JonM]

wsb?

Nope - far, far from Milwaukee. I've always enjoyed WSB's beers.

 

[mm1473]

Wow--I am pretty surprised at how many replies this got. I dont think I can remember all the questions posed but here goes:

1) My main motivation in giving them advice would be because I would hate to see another business go belly up in this town. The economy here sucks bad enough and the owners are pretty nice people--although one has to wonder about the wisdom of opening a upscale brewery in a town of 2000 rednecks--but that is a topic for another thread.

2) They did bring in an outside brewer from a neighboring town to teach the head brewer the ropes but he is brewing on his own now. The outside brewer makes some pretty good beers and he works at a well known brewery that sells their beer locally and at their brewery. I dont know how many batches he oversaw or what part he took in recipe formulation.

3) I dont know if they dumped batches trying to get it right. I drove by the building almost everyday while they were remodeling it and you could see the tanks etc... being installed through the window. I know 1month or so after they were installed, the brewery opened selling their own beer--so I would guess there was not much experimentation but that is pure speculation.

4) I tried the brown when they first opened and the IPA yesterday--it has been probably 4 months or so between the two samples.

5) I have never heard of ratebeer or the other site you mentioned. I checked ratebeer and the beers got ripped. Totally different complaints than the ones I had but, like I said, I am still learning. After reading the reviews I can definitely taste/smell those issues they bring up. Since I am sure the brewer has seen those reviews I would guess my delimma is a moot point--especially since those reviews actually sound intelligent rather than my "carbonated chocolate milk" review--by the way, are cloudy IPA's really popular nationwide?? Guess I need to get out more.

6) I was also kind of wondering if maybe it was just me that didnt like the beer. I did go from total BMC drinking to homebrewing in a short time so my palate is not overly developed. I was kind of excited to see the poor reviews on ratebeer--not because I wish the owners/brewer bad things but because maybe I am starting to learn what actually makes up a poor quality beer--goodness knows I have made a bunch!!

7) I am not going to put the brewery's name on here because I dont feel it is appropriate. I was just looking for advice--not trying to slam a business.

Anyway--I think that is most of the questions. Thanks to everyone for your opinions--it is always good to get multiple points of view.

 

[mm1473]

delete

 

[kombat]

Google to the rescue. 4B's Brewery in Cedaredge, Colorado, opened in May 2015. Scant reviews on RateBeer so far, but what's there is pretty negative. I hope they get their issues worked out.

 

[FarmerTed]

Since you've only had the beer twice (off-site), I wouldn't go in and say anything. Four months isn't that long to be open anyway. We had a brewery open in my small town that put out a few shaky beers when they first opened, but three years later they are doing well and make very solid beer over a wide range of styles. I think it helps to have a beer on site, though, especially if you want to chat with the brewer/staff. The brewery I go to was started by very experienced people, though, and I think they just needed to work out the kinks on their equipment to get going. It sounds like your brewery may go through worse growing pains.

It sounds good to say 'don't drink mediocre beer,' but if this is the only show in town, you should try to support them (unless they just suck hard for a long time). Pints cost less than growlers, so that's what I would have. Or, if the above post is right, just get crowlers from Colorado Boy. Their beer is awesome.

 

[unionrdr]

It definitely sounds like they need some more help in the brewery processes? Some constructive criticism is surely in order, with business falling off.

 

[JonM]

Wow - is a 7pm closing time due to an local ordinance or something? It is a nice looking place though.

 

[mm1473]

Like I said--my goal was not to slam a business--just solicit advice as to if I should say anything. Those are some pretty impressive Google skills however.

 

[Psylocide]

Yeah, tell them it sucks right to their faces. Or at least ask if they genuinely thought it was good enough to put on tap and charge tap room prices.

Unacceptable if you ask me, and since (I'm assuming) you're not being paid to help them work out their issues, I wouldn't offer one bit of advice. Not that it would help much, since I'm unfamiliar with large scale production.

 

[kombat]

I'm torn. On the one hand, I'd be very uncomfortable trying to broach the subject and not hurt any feelings. In that sense, I'd be inclined to just keep my mouth shut, smile, and be polite. It turns out that's exactly what I ended up doing when I attended a local craft brewery's opening not too long ago, even though their beer was clearly flawed.

On the other hand, if it were me, I'd want to know. If they're nice people, I'd want to help them. If they already know about the issues, then it will let them know that they're being noticed by customers. If they don't know about the issues, they will hopefully appreciate the feedback and guidance. If you say nothing, and they can't figure out why people aren't buying their beer, then they'll eventually fail, people will lose jobs, loans will go unpaid and a family's finances will suffer, possibly irreparably.

It's a tough call, and I guess it comes down to your relationship with the owners. Are you comfortable enough with them to have this kind of a conversation, or will they respond negatively?

 

[MaxStout]

Google to the rescue. 4B's Brewery in Cedaredge, Colorado, opened in May 2015. Scant reviews on RateBeer so far, but what's there is pretty negative. I hope they get their issues worked out.

That's not a good sign. Whether you are operating a brewery, restaurant, retail store, whatever, you need to start out with your best foot forward. You have to hit it out of the park on day one. With all the social media and online review sites, a lackluster debut only ensures bad reviews, which in turn, signals the beginning of a downward spiral.

We can talk 'til we're blue in the face about supporting the local beer scene, but at the end of the day, it's still a business. And all the warm, fuzzy "beer community" sentiments won't save a business with mediocre products in an already crowded market. As an earlier poster noted, there are too many breweries opening up without doing adequate QC.

I hope they get it together and pick up some goodwill and business.

 

[unionrdr]

That's the real question! It depends on how you think they'll react, given what you know or perceive about them. Ease into it tactfully, gently at first, feeling the situation out. Some kind of opener to break the ice would be good. I wouldn't want them to fail, much less because I could've said something that might've helped. Never mind how I know.

 

[FarmerTed]

FWIW, the people on yelp like the brown ale. I'm not sure if the amber or the cream ale (or whatever it is on the right) are theirs, but the beer that should be clear looks pretty clear to me.

You can always go there and have a Grimm Bros. Their beer is excellent.

 

[normonster]

I'd keep my mouth shut and vote with my dollars. If some pissant came into my brewery making suggestions that's what I'd tell him too.

Considering it's packed full of "hipsters" or whatever I have a feeling your opinions won't do much. You're not even part of their target market.

 

[chickypad]

-by the way, are cloudy IPA's really popular nationwide?? Guess I need to get out more

Not sure about the rest of the country but they sure are around here. Not uncommon with super fresh, unfiltered, dry-hopped beers. Here's a couple pics of Cellarmaker's Tiny Dankster - 99 on ratebeer, 4.02 on Untappd. It's yummy.

 

[mm1473]

I have never heard of a cloudy ipa before today. I realize I am old school-at 50+ I am allowed to be--but to me that looks like orange juice and I would have a tough time with it. I am sure it tastes great but to me beer should be clear unless something is messed up or it is a wheat. Granted I can't create a clear beer to save my life but if I am paying for it I prefer it to be clear.

 

[chickypad]

My own IPA's are usually much clearer than this, but it doesn't bother me either way as it doesn't hurt the taste. I don't do anything really special but there are few simple things that can help - whirfloc in the kettle, fairly quick chill, cold crash before kegging.

 

[pretzelb]

I have never heard of a cloudy ipa before today. I realize I am old school-at 50+ I am allowed to be--but to me that looks like orange juice and I would have a tough time with it. I am sure it tastes great but to me beer should be clear unless something is messed up or it is a wheat. Granted I can't create a clear beer to save my life but if I am paying for it I prefer it to be clear.

Well it depends on the style. BJCP says for American IPA "Appearance: Color ranges from medium gold to light reddish-amber. Should be clear, although unfiltered dryhopped versions may be a bit hazy. Medium-sized, white to offwhitehead with good persistence." Personally I go by taste for IPA and leave clarity for lagers.

I'd like to say that anyone who recommended you confront or never go back really failed to read the part where you said you live in a small town. At best those people can feign ignorance for not knowing what that means. As a few others have stated this but my opinion is your best strategy is a mix of honesty with elective ignorance.

I'd go in and admit you know something about brewing beer. Then I'd honestly give your impressions of the beer. However I'd enclose all that in questions about the process or style in order to soften the blow. Ask him what a brown ale should taste like and ask about the flavors you discovered. This gives the feedback the brewer needs and takes you off the hook knowing you did what you could.

I'd also suggest you visit this thread from someone who went pro. You can ask him for advice.