Brewery Etiquette

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mm1473

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Here is an odd question for you:

So--recently a new brewery opened up in our little town. I have gone in twice now to purchase growlers because that is their only take home option and I cant sample there because the "trendy" crowd annoys me ( :D ). The first beer I took home was a brown and needed to be aged quite a bit (see, you guys have taught me something!!). It had a pretty potent alcohol taste that totally overwhelmed the flavors in the beer. Each sip was like taking a brown shot of vodka. Today I got an IPA and it tastes decent but is really cloudy--I'm talking like carbonated chocolate milk cloudy--kind of off-putting actually. I have not tried their other beers but have heard similar comments about them having problems also.

So the question: What is the proper etiquette about saying something to them about the problems I have noticed in the beers?? Do I just choke them down and don't go back again or do I just casually mention the couple of problems I have noticed. I kind of know the brewer and he is brand new at it without any homebrew or other brewery experience at all. The owners are really good people and I hate to see them struggling like they are. As I am still learning daily and have no knowledge of actual processes at the commercial scale, I don't know that I would be the right guy to say something--but at the same time, if I am noticing the problems with my limited experience, the beer snob crowd is probably ripping them to pieces--and in a small town that can kill a business. Anyway--just curious on your thoughts on this issue. Have a good day.
 
This is my opinion. If you know the owners and the brewer then I see no problem saying anything. My question is why would a new brewery hire someone who has no experience? That makes no sense.
Be constructive with your comments.
I'm sure others will chime in with different but bottom line is you need to feel comfortable talking to them.
 
I am a business owner, granted its a concrete countertop business not a brewery. I welcome constructive criticism. Concrete countertops are newer and the industry changes a lot. Always new better techniques and new products. If I can do something better I always want to know. If no one is telling you you are putting out a product that could be better how would you ever get better. I wouldn't want someone telling me I suck at what I do but if someone says hey have you heard of doing it this way the concrete cures out harder I listen. Most of the time if it make sense I try it. Again you always want to strive for the best so I can't see an owner ever being upset if you give a little advise. Just make sure it's advise not telling them it sucks. One more thing. Most of the time when someone tells me there is a better way they bring in a sample so I can see the better way. They don't just sound like a know it all but have something to back up. If your friends with the owners I'm sure they have sampled your home brew but maybe have them over for a good IPA. Server there beer then yours and compare. Not sure how the laws would work with you walking into the brewery with a pint so might be good to have them over.
 
To clarify--it is a really small town so everybody "knows" everybody. If I see the owners in the store I say "hi" but is not like I am having them over for dinner and drinks on a nightly basis. As far bringing them my product--I am still finding and correcting problems with every brew--I think it is getting pretty good but there is always room for improvement. With my limited knowledge of the commercial process I don't know that I would be able to offer suggestions to fix the problem other than they need to consider aging their product and looking into clarifying agents. Like I said--it's kind of a weird problem that I am not sure what the right answer is.
 
Well with you admitting you're still a novice (not knocking you) there's really not much you have to offer. I'd assume they're aware of the quality of the beer. If no one had brewing experience and they opened up a brewpub anyways, and without springing for the whopping like 35k salary it take to hire a decent brewer, well... good riddance.
 
mm1473 said:
Here is an odd question for you:

So--recently a new brewery opened up in our little town. I have gone in twice now to purchase growlers because that is their only take home option and I cant sample there because the "trendy" crowd annoys me ( :D ). The first beer I took home was a brown and needed to be aged quite a bit (see, you guys have taught me something!!). It had a pretty potent alcohol taste that totally overwhelmed the flavors in the beer. Each sip was like taking a brown shot of vodka. Today I got an IPA and it tastes decent but is really cloudy--I'm talking like carbonated chocolate milk cloudy--kind of off-putting actually. I have not tried their other beers but have heard similar comments about them having problems also.

So the question: What is the proper etiquette about saying something to them about the problems I have noticed in the beers?? Do I just choke them down and don't go back again or do I just casually mention the couple of problems I have noticed. I kind of know the brewer and he is brand new at it without any homebrew or other brewery experience at all. The owners are really good people and I hate to see them struggling like they are. As I am still learning daily and have no knowledge of actual processes at the commercial scale, I don't know that I would be the right guy to say something--but at the same time, if I am noticing the problems with my limited experience, the beer snob crowd is probably ripping them to pieces--and in a small town that can kill a business. Anyway--just curious on your thoughts on this issue. Have a good day.
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Well, I'm not sure what the etiquette is on this, and I agree it seems very odd that the "brewer" is not a brew master with an education around beer brewing! It is a huge investment to start a business like that. I would give them some feedback. Without it they could fail before they even get off the ground!
 
I agree that you need to speak up. Just be tactful & give them to know you're trying to help them be successful. The hot alcohol taste is usually temp related. Clarity can be starch haze, chill haze, or just not giving it time to settle out. It can also be from dry hop oils stemming from a big load of dry hops.
 
people are so defensive these days I'd probably just chalk it up as a crappy brewery and not go there again.
 
I agree... IF you talk to the owners, just be very careful about how you give your opinion. Definitely don't come off as a "know-it-all." Maybe express it as a learning opportunity for you to learn from someone else's perspective.
 
I would get a small glass of their IPA on tap, and see if it is that cloudy and chocolate milky in a pint glass. If that is the case, you can assume they know about the problem, and they choose to do it that way. The same is true of the Brown Ale, ask for a shot glass taster, and if it tastes the same alcohol sting as your growler, then assume they know about it, and that is how they choose to brew. Then you have the choice to take it or leave it.
 
You could always play the dumb card...what I mean is if you decide to talk them ask the question like, "I bought a growler of your IPA the other day and noticed it was cloudy...is that how it's supposed to be?" You could even give them example of an IPA that is clear...or you can just chalk it up to poor brewing, fermentation, packaging process and leave it alone...let us know what you decide!
 
Is that the only brewery in your area? If not, just go somewhere else. Why waste your hard-earned dollars on mediocre beer?

I've had plenty of crappy beer at breweries. But it's not my job to help fix it. Approaching the brewers about the perceived flaws in their beers will only put them on the defensive, no matter how delicately you pose the issue.
 
As we all accept constructive criticism differently, I would send over an email to the brewer. That way, it's not like you're coming at them in the midst of them trying to do their job.

Lead off with praise: tell them what they're kicking ass at and what you love about their beers. Then pose your concerns/constructive criticism as questions, rather than pointed, "you're doing it wrong" statements.

Just my two cents.
 
Since it's a small town and likely one of only a few places locally that brews, you may want to keep them around as a place to go to, provided they can brew better beer. In order to facilitate that, I'd talk to the owner.

Now the owners may not know all that much about beer and fully trust their brewmaster to provide product. So a good talk would be beneficial to them. Try to meet them during a non-busy time so they can hear you and you can hear them. Preferably without the brewmaster being present at that first meeting.

Once they see a declining trend in their sales, they may start to investigate, but it would be too late to fix a tarnished reputation, which is difficult to regain.

Have you shared these beers with a few experienced brew friends and gotten their opinion, just to have a point of reference?

Any ideas how they attract and maintain the "trendy" crowd? Maybe the "trendy" crowd doesn't care or know about the beer quality all that much.
 
MaxStout said:
Is that the only brewery in your area? If not, just go somewhere else. Why waste your hard-earned dollars on mediocre beer?

I've had plenty of crappy beer at breweries. But it's not my job to help fix it. Approaching the brewers about the perceived flaws in their beers will only put them on the defensive, no matter how delicately you pose the issue.
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This.

I only pay retail prices for beer that is fantastic. I'd never pay money for crap beer considering I can make crap beer at my house for a fraction of the cost.
 
If they are brand new maybe they are still working out their processes and figuring out their equipment and can't afford to flush beer that's not what they were going for yet. If the beer doesn't vastly improve over a short period of time then maybe talk to them. If you do speak to them, remember it's all about presentation (attitude/careful wording/etc.).
 
This is a pet peeve of mine. with the craft/micro beer scene growing it seems there is a new brewery popping up every other week. And I have stopped trying new ones early in there opening because I have had to many bad samples or pints. I don't know how these people are investing money into a business and producing such a bad product out of the starting gate.

To the OP. I think you have to give constructive criticism. Even if it is from a customer stand point and not a home Brewer stand point. If the beer is cloudy or tastes like alcohol then a non home Brewer is probably feeling the same way. If they don't hear the truth they likely will not improve. If they choose not to take criticism stop going.
 
I wouldn't bother. If these people did open a brewery with no brewing experience and they're not paying someone who is experienced to brew, then I seem to want to jump to the conclusion that they're slightly arrogant enough to think this can work. I could be wrong, but knowing your limitations is key in this industry. Not everyone should be opening a brewery, especially if no one has a bit of experience. It's hard to say what you should do, but were it me, I would not return for a good amount of time and let them get their ducks in a row. If in 4-6 months quality has not improved, move on.
 
I think if you like the place, and the owner/brewmaster seems like cool people, then you gotta give them some help.

But then again, if they're putting out low-quality product, and have an inexperienced brewmaster, I doubt they're running the business all that great in the first place, and any advice you give them will probably not help. I mean if they can't afford to dump ****ty batches, or to let something age, then they've started off completely wrong.
 
Have the BA and RateBeer folks reviewed the place? Not that I put a whole lot of stock in BA or RB reviews, but if the reviews are consistently saying "hot fusel alcohol flavor in the brown ale" and "opaque milky cloudiness in the IPA," the brewers have probably gotten the message.
 
Best bet would be to return the growler and ask for a refund. They probably aren't going to listen to a self-admitted home-brewing novice, but they will listen to a paying customer who wants their money back.
 
JonM said:
Have the BA and RateBeer folks reviewed the place? Not that I put a whole lot of stock in BA or RB reviews, but if the reviews are consistently saying "hot fusel alcohol flavor in the brown ale" and "opaque milky cloudiness in the IPA," the brewers have probably gotten the message.
Click to expand...

That is another thing: opaque, milky cloudy IPA are all the rage now (thanks Heady Topper)...I wonder if OP is the odd man out on this one...
 
If they have an email that's probably the route I would take. Send them an email letting them know you are excited to have a brewpub here in town, but there is some room for improvements. Something such as "I bought a growler of the brown ale, had some nice flavors, but these were overshadowed by a vodka like hot alcohol flavor" and "I also bought a growler of the IPA, which tastes and smells fine, but poured in a glass there is a thick, milky look to it that detracts from the finished product."

I've been surprised reading interviews with brewery/brewpub owners, how many start the business with zero or very little experience in any form of brewing. And most brewers have had no formal brewing education.

In a small town especially where people don't want to step on anyone's toes, people have a tendency to be overly nice, when sometimes people need to be told what they are doing wrong. How they take your suggestions/criticism is totally on them and not something you need to worry over.

Should they need to be told any of this? No, but they're putting crap out there so either they are clueless or careless.
 
At the same time, I recently went to a brewpub where I thought the beers were really boring and uninteresting and watery, but the food was good, the place was jam-packed on an average Thursday at 11:30 in the morning, and I hear it's SRO on the weekends and when the local NBA and minor league baseball team are playing.

Point is: if the tills are ringing and customers are coming back, who cares what I think?
 
Bring them some of your beers and ask for feedback. It will facilitate discussion and make it less awkward when you bring up flaws you notice in theirs. It will also likely let you buy ingredients like grain sacks at vastly discounted prices and/or collaborate with them. Thats what I did with the 2 breweries that opened around me anyway...
 
If they are as inexperienced as you say, the place is unlikely to succeed. Just wait, they will probably be gone soon.

But, if it is just that you don't like the beers they make and others do, then you will have to find another source for your beer.
 
broadbill said:
That is another thing: opaque, milky cloudy IPA are all the rage now (thanks Heady Topper)...I wonder if OP is the odd man out on this one...
Click to expand...

I was kind of wondering this too. Some of the local smaller breweries make great IPA's but they are often quite cloudy, I assume from dry hopping and being so fresh (Cellarmaker comes to mind).

Are you saying the head brewer has no experience at all either in a brewery or homebrewing, not an assistant brewer or something? If that's really the case then I'm with @Hello. What business owner in their right mind would do that? Would they open a restaurant employing a chef with no experience, even on an amateur level? Something doesn't sound right. I don't know where you are in Colorado but I'd think you're not hurting for other options for craft beer.
 
A similar thing happened with one of the breweries here. The founders were hombrewers, so they had the brewing knowledge, but the jump to commercial brewing is pretty big.

They really didn't have their process down very well at first, whether that was scaling recipes, or large-scale production issues, or whatever, they still sold their first few batches.

I get it though. On one hand, money is just flying out the door in those first few months, so any form of revenue is helpful. One the other hand, they garnered a terrible reputation in those first few months for their terrible beer.

The BA president said that all the new breweries opening without any QC program are hurting the whole industry. The competition is stiff, especially in CO. If you are going to start a venture like this, figure your process out first before selling bad beer. It is too late to ride the coat-tails of the craftbeer boom; if you are going to make it you better be good from the start.
 
ColoHox said:
The BA president said that all the new breweries opening without any QC program are hurting the whole industry. The competition is stiff, especially in CO. If you are going to start a venture like this, figure your process out first before selling bad beer. It is too late to ride the coat-tails of the craftbeer boom; if you are going to make it you better be good from the start.
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👍 Part of there business plan and budget should be a dump fund. Any respectable Business owner or Brewer should want to put out the best product on the market no matter what it takes.
 
indymedic said:
👍 Part of there business plan and budget should be a dump fund. Any respectable Business owner or Brewer should want to put out the best product on the market no matter what it takes.
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I don't know, I'm kind of conflicted about this. Yes, a cushion of operating capital should be able to cover a bad batch or two. That is just prudent business.

No one wants to dump their beer. Most startup breweries are at the 7-10bbl level, which is 180-250 gallons. That is a lot of time, labor, and raw material cost to go down the drain. The easiest fix, which requires some humility (which, as mentioned in other posts, may be an issue) is to ask another pro-brewer for help. The brewers in this industry are so willing to help that NOT asking about recipes or process issues is just trouble.

Sure, though, if you have sought out help and done everything you can to make good beer, sometimes a batch is just bad and it has to go.
 
I'd ask them if they welcome constructive criticism. If they say, "yes of course" then just say you're just trying to provide some feedback on their product. Say you're learning to brew also and these are the things that could make their product even better than it already is.

I find if you give a complement right off the bat it helps with lightening up the conversation. With brewing it's all about making your beer better or making beer the best you can make it. As long as you're constructive with your comments I don't really see any issues with being honest. It's either that or they go out of business for making sub-par beer.
 
The real question is are they making the beer they want to be making?

There's a very successful winery near me that makes a fantastic business on selling just awful wine to the wine version of the BMC crowd. I just don't go there.

I would probably just grab the brewer and ask him about process - to see what he's doing. If there was something odd or obviously wrong, I might comment.

On the other hand, I've pulled out of competitions and fundraising events where I was going to serve beer because I wasn't happy with my product. If it doesn't meet my standards, I won't serve it.
 
I've gotten to know the main brewer at a local brewpub and regularly talk to him when I go there for dinner. While I might not call him a "friend", I feel comfortable discussing the beer that's on tap and pointing out what I perceive as flaws or asking if that's what they were going for.

I think anyone who genuinely wants to put out a good product and improve would be happy with some gentle constructive criticism.
 
OP is there a reason you're keeping the name of the brewery secret? If you really are in a small town in Colorado it is unlikely you're going to influence their sales by naming them. However, it is possible some other HBT members possibly with BJCP experience might have tried their beer so as to confirm your initial impressions.

My former father-in-law, I'll call him Mr. Know-it-all, opened a restaurant here in Mobile many years ago. He had zero restaurant experience (either owning or working in one) and proceeded to fail in short order.

Thinking he'd learned something a few years later he opened another smaller restaurant which also failed because just like in the first venture his food was marginal, the location was not well-chosen, he didn't advertise enough, and he did not have the necessary capital to survive the start up.

My point is that some people make dumb or ignorant mistakes and do not learn from them. Someone opening a brewery with no brewing experience and who hires people who similarly have no experience is likely not going to listen to anyone else anyway. Even failure may not slow them down as was the case with Mr. Know-it-all.
 
I'm going to go against the grain of the thread on this one. Unless you genuinely think the brewer is unaware that his beer is excessively cloudy, I'd keep the opinion to myself. I guarantee you're not the only one who has or will criticize the professional brewer for perceived flaws in his beer. Even within the context of constructive criticism, I can imagine it would be very frustrating to have faux-connoisseurs offering unsolicited feedback and advice a few times a day. If the beer snobs are already eviscerating them with poor reviews, they likely already have a good idea of their problems.

Since you stated that you have no knowledge of commercial brewing techniques, a conversation wouldn't really accomplish anything other than rubbing the brewer's nose in it again (albeit gently and with good intentions).

Is your desire to talk about the problems with the beer more out of a desire to help with constructive feedback or is it to confirm your intuition that things have been going poorly in the brewery?
 
Too many good breweries out there to waste any time worrying about the bad ones.

The craft market is booming. Perhaps even overcrowded. If you can't put out a decent beer, then maybe it's time to just close your doors.

One of our local breweries has maybe one decent beer, and pretty much everything else I've tried that they put out has been irredeemable crap. I always like to buy local, but I've got plenty of other options. They've pretty much lost my business permanently.
 
mm1473 said:
I cant sample there because the "trendy" crowd annoys me...
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MaxStout said:
Why waste your hard-earned dollars on mediocre beer?

I've had plenty of crappy beer at breweries. But it's not my job to help fix it.
Click to expand...

First, unless the "trendy" people are intentionally doing something to make you feel unwelcome, get over it. Usually they are just people who lack the self confidence to "be themselves" and are trying to fit in.

As for whose "job" it is to fix their beers. That's not even an issue. The beautiful thing about craft beer is that it is a community. Unless your small town is in Oregon or North Carolina, I'm going to guess that there aren't a lot of breweries around. And, it sounds like these people didn't realize what they were getting into. Read Sam Calagione's book. There were people in the area who were excited that a brewpub was opening in Rehobeth who gave freely of their time to make it a success. So my advice is:

  • Start drinking there and get to know them.
  • Ask questions about what they are going for in each beer.
  • Give respectful feedback.
  • Pose suggestions as questions like " Do you use Irish Moss?"

I was a Starbucks manager almost 15 years ago when there were a lot of places that didn't have Starbucks. Back then, coffee shops were the hot new business, and a lot of people got into it thinking it would be easy. I remember walking into places who were using food service coffee to make espresso, because they didn't have a clue. It would be sad if these people have mortgaged their house because they heard brewing was a growth industry, even though they have no experience.

Show them what this community is all about, and see if you can help.
 

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