Brew system to potential pilot brewery system

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Ishraider

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Hey everybody! So after a few weeks of research I am still up in the air about the system to buy or build. First of all let me tell you my vision. My vision is to create a brew system, with a control panel, to continue my home brewing. I have the aspirations to start my own brewery but know that getting investors and just diving in is a terrible idea.

I want to dial in my brew skills (been brewing off and on for 6-7 years) and get recipes that I know people will love and drink before I even dive in and start building. I am currently looking at buying the MoreBeer Single-Tier 20 gallon automated RIMS system. It runs at $5600 and is close enough to where I live that I can eliminate shipping charges ($1000) by driving down and picking it up.

Now I know I can build this system likely for much cheaper, maybe $3000-$4000 range but would rather build the easy components and not the control panel due to the fact I have absolutely no electrical work skills and don't want to risk it. I know a welder that would weld me a stand at cost and some beers down the road. I guess what I am asking is for is advice and direction as to building a similar system that I could just ramp up the volume to say a 1 BBL system. I am pretty good at learning how to do new things, but information and directions vary so much from system to system.

Any and all advice is welcomed. I love brewing and I love teaching people to brew so I would love to start VERY small and get my brand and name amongst the locals in my small town first, then see about the potential to build. Whether its NG or Propane gas I am still trying to decide. Mainly cause after I use my system get my recipes dialed in, I would then have to go through the red tape of becoming an actual licensed brewery and not sure if Natural Gas or Propane is easier to get cleared. Here in Oregon you can not brew for sale from a garage that is attached to a home dwelling, but you can if a garage is unattached to the house and that is a good place to start a small scale brewery in my town.

Thanks ahead for advice and if anybody has done what I am looking to do please don't be afraid to tell me everything and how your success has been.
 
I had a local welder build me a SS brew stand for fairly cheap ($450). I used to brew with propane but the cost was adding up, so I took the plunge and went all electric and could not have been happier. To answer your question, I would look into Kal's pre built control panel, and you could easily convert pots to electric as a DYI. Either set it up as a RIMS system or HERMS, whatever your choice is, I have a HERMS now and think it's great.

Good luck!
 
I love everything about my morebeer 10 gallon digital sculpture... the automated burner and pumps are amazing and make the brewing process that much more enjoyable. Overall, worth every penny in my opinion. Cheers!

 
I love everything about my morebeer 10 gallon digital sculpture... the automated burner and pumps are amazing and make the brewing process that much more enjoyable. Overall, worth every penny in my opinion. Cheers!


What size are those kettles? 15 gal?
 
Thanks for the responses.
Elaelap: I like the idea of going all electric cause it is probably WAY easier to get approved through the fire marshall and building codes. This system with the 50a panel requires a different kind of outlet right? Something that would require an electrician to come in and do if not already done?
 
Yep, for mine, I had to have an electrician install a 240v outlet in my garage. Lucky for me, my friend is an electrician so he did it for a case of homebrew. Lots of all electric information here on the forums, but I couldn't be happier going that route. You could check out the folks at highgravity, they offer an all electric system for those that dont want to do any DIY.
 
Thanks for steering me towards High Gravity. For some reason as I researched more through their website I have a better understanding of electric brewing systems. So now I have a few scenarios that I have come across.

Has anybody used Blichmann's new G2 pot with the electric boilcoils? Seems like a very easy and effective way to do electric brewing. With a HERMS system and Blichmann's 55 Gallon pots it looks like you could build a system using High Gravity Brewing's control panel for about $4500 buying most everything else through MoreBeer.

The question is the boil coils are 5750 watts and it says the 55 Gallon Blichmann Kettle requires 2 for boiling and a GFCI breaker of 60. High Gravity EBC III-D controller says it can run 2 5500W heating elements at the same time. That puts it over the maximum amount of electricity the panel could hold doesn't it? So that must really mean that you could not run the HLT (with one boilcoil) and the two for the kettle at the same time?

I am still a little confused (as most people are im sure) about how the electrical part of this. It does look like I am leaning more towards an electrical system now since I think the amount of extra work that is involved with actually getting up to code to brew for sale.
 
With 60 amps you could run 2 elements at the same time. If I was going to go with 55 Gallon pots I would have 2 in the HLT and 2 in the BK. Look at theelectricbrewery.com and see how he does his brew day. It would be identical but you would use 2 elements at the same time while he uses 1 at a time.

11500 (total watts) / 220 (Volts) = 52.3 (AMP)
11500 (total watts) / 240 (Volts) = 47.9 (AMP)
 
Alright I think I have my setup up designed. I plan on using 3- Blichmann 55 Gallon G2 pots with a HERMS system. I currently don't have a 50a 240v plug at my current place and I am renting so cant change that. I do have a 40a 240v that my oven runs off so I can use that to at least run my system for 20 gallon batches running only 1 element at a time until I get a place to set up the brewery. Going to put 2 elements in both the BK and the HLT. Run 2 chugger pumps and I am in between where I am getting my control panel from. I came across www.cobrewingsystems.com and have talked to someone on their end about a 50a panel that can be easily converted to 100a if things start to fall into place. Going to buy the HERMS coil from Kal's website and most likely the heating elements as well. Autosparge from blichmann and a therminator chiller likely. The only thing now is to decide on a fermenter.
 
Sounds like a great set up! Post some pics when you have it all up and running. I know a lot of people like gas and get some great results, but going all electric is really a great choice. For fermenters, Stout Tanks, and SSbrewtech make some great options, just depends on what size you need.
 
Stainless Brewing is a good vendor.

I know you said you are set on the Blichmann pots. I would reconsider that if you want this for a commercial system in the future. I would look to the pots that have welded TC fittings (I believe many are comparable in price to the Blichmann's). I would even attach my HERMS coil that way. It makes for a much easier removal if you ever need to. I would also make my HERMS coil longer than 50ft. I believe SB will do custom lengths and weld the HERMS coil into TC fittings.
 
My 2 cents: Trying to use a 3 vessel 1bbl system in your rented house off of one 40 amp outlet is just going to be a total pain in the butt. Just handling those pots and cleaning them without a dedicated space is going to be too much effort.
So If I was doing what you want to, I'd go much cheaper, get two 15 gallon Blichtmann pots with their controller (only need one controller because you can only plug in one at a time anyway), mash in a 10 gallon cooler, and spend your cash on temp control,kegs and other things.
When you get your own place, and have much more experience, you can get the equipment that better suits what space you have.
It just doesn't make sense to buy business equipment for a space you don't have and for a business that isn't starting anytime soon.
When you are ready to start your commercial brewery, you might even come across a used pilot system you can buy, who knows?
You can always sell the Blichtmann equipment at a good price, think of the difference between buying new and selling used as "renting" the equipment.
Do you really need an automated HERMS system anyway?
I ran my own business for 10+ years (not brewing) and blew a lot of money I didn't need too because of inexperience, just trying to help you out, good luck with your plan.
 
madscientist: I definitely understand what your saying. I currently already have a 10 gallon All-Grain system that I have brewed on for 4-5 years now. The reason why I am making the jump is cause I have never been much of a risk taker in pursuing the things that I want to do. If I am going to make this brewery thing work I know how important consistency and repeatability is and that's why I want to go with an automated system.

We have a brewery in our town that started with a 1/2 barrel cooler system and they struggled seriously for the first 2 years and are just now getting themselves to a better spot. They were inconsistent in their beer and the locals and tourist have noticed. Also I run a bar that my parents own along with 2 other restaurants so I have an immediate way to get my beer on tap once I am legal to help build the brand before making the BIG jump.

As for space I only plan to brew 20 gallon batches on that system until my recipes are more finalized and consistent and I actually have quite a bit of space at my current living quarters, including a spare bedroom and TONS of storage space. I feel brewing on a 40amp for 20 gallons would be no more work than my 10 gallon Keggle/Cooler system is now (which as we all know can be some serious back breaking work), which is why I want to go automated because I LOVE to brew but after the 300 or so gallons I have brewed on my current system, it makes it tough to do multiple brews within a reasonable amount of time. The idea is if I can get this to work and start taking the necessary steps to being legit, this system could end up being the system I use to get a brewery established and then buy it back from myself as the pilot system for the brewery.

I just turned 30 this last week and still have not found exactly what it is I WANT to do with my days rather than what I already know I CAN do. I guess what I am saying is I am ready to take a risk and my current debt to income ratio is 2% I have pretty much absolutely no debt and therefore $5000-$6000 is not to big of a blow if things don't work out, cause like you said, blichmann stuff has a pretty good resale value if cared for.

I do appreciate the input though that is exactly why I came here cause everybody is always really helpful and you guys are the "experts" in my mind. I will look into TC fittings and some other kettles some more. I plan to do at least another couple weeks of research but I am going to base the system of theelectricbrewery setup. The funny thing is, the actual brewing equipment isn't the part that makes it so expensive, its all the disconnects, tubing, ball valves, etc. that jack the price up!

If I went TC will it be compatible for the system like Kals? The quick disconnect seems convenient for the fact that you can quickly disconnect one hose and reconnect another.
 
If I am going to make this brewery thing work I know how important consistency and repeatability is and that's why I want to go with an automated system.



We have a brewery in our town that started with a 1/2 barrel cooler system and they struggled seriously for the first 2 years and are just now getting themselves to a better spot. They were inconsistent in their beer and the locals and tourist have noticed.
The idea is if I can get this to work and start taking the necessary steps to being legit, this system could end up being the system I use to get a brewery established and then buy it back from myself as the pilot system for the brewery.

Do you really need a $5,000 automated system to make consistently good beer? Its nice to have, but I'm skeptical that you really need it.

Did the small brewery in your town struggle because they didn't have a system with automation? The small breweries that I've been to with beer problems (off flavors) all seemed like fermentation or other post boil beer handling issues.

Ok, I get it; you want the 1bbl system and want to get brewing on it ASAP, that's all a great idea, I say go for it . If you have 2-3 accounts you can sell to right away, you should get a space, get licensed and get open right away.
I think you could get a 1/2 barrel system with some fermentors and kegs for $6k.

My last tidbits about business: keep your debt load low or none, don't involve a bunch of "partners" or investors if you don't have to.
Keep your day job until you are satisfied that you can support yourself with the business. Keep a level head about the finances, if you're not making money there's nothing wrong with closing down for a while until you figure out how to solve your problems. Cheers! and good luck!
 
Thanks madscientist! I don't really NEED at $5k automated system I know I can make great beer without it, but the automation would allow me to work within my schedule, cause like you said I am not quitting my day job unless this turns serious. I agree with taking in minimal investors that's the main reason I want to start very very little in order to create my brand and sales to present to a bank for a Small Business load. One of my good friends is a branch manager of a very large bank company and I have already consulted him a bit on the finance situation which is nice.

With my current schedule I already put in a bit over 40 hours a week between Bartending, Ordering/Scheduling, marketing and what not for my Bar and on top of that I do the QuickBooks for my parents business so my plate is pretty full right now and feel like the best shot I would have is to have a system that will allow for as few hiccups as possible. For fermenters I plan to just start with a few Speidel plastic fermenters (I know touchy subject for most brewers) but from what I hear they work just fine for the volume in which I plan to start.

The local brewery struggled because of consistency. They still to this point are having troubles with it even though they have scaled way up and even taken on a distributor. They started in my mind without very set recipes, no client base, or a brand. Amongst other things that in most mind was not very well planned.

Everything here is a building block for me. As you can see my original idea of a MoreBeer sculpture changed into a 1 BBL Electric Brewery within 2 weeks haha. Keep the input coming!
 
What are you call in automation? If you mean that you measure water out ahead of time into vessels and show up to hot water to mash in immediately then sure, go for it. That changes the time dynamic so that it could work.

The issue I see is that you are signing up for at least 30 hours a week of work. Brewing is the least of your worries. If you are into it then go for it! I built a 1/2bbl electric system for my garage that is designed around 1 bbl platform in the future so I can use it for a pilot system. 1/2bbl is probably a fine pilot system anyway.
 
I know a brewery in my area that started on one of those fancy sabco systems. Probably just as expensive, and a bit smaller, but they still use it as a pilot system. Can't imagine it wouldn't work well. And it's totally all in one package.
 
I built a 4-element BCS panel. I have it wired up so that I can only run one element at a time because I am running off a 30-amp circuit. I don't own my house so I can't go installing stuff all willynilly. I wish I could. I built it around the idea of using 2-50amp circuits. One for the HLT and the other for the BK and pumps/bcs. I am going to pull the BCS from the panel and mount it on it's own ferm panel and then link it up to the high voltage panel with com lines for brew day. I have 30-gallon stout kettles now but expect to switch out to 40-gallon kettles for the 1bbl setup. A single 5500w element in the HLT and BK is plenty for this size but it would be underpowered for much more.

I will probably build my own kettles for the 1bbl. These stout kettles are lower quality than I hoped and have some design flaws. I think with a few days of time and my TIG I can get the kettles exactly how I want them.
 
The reason I have come to this system so far is because I plan to GROW. The biggest mistake anybody can make in any business is to not expect growth. So if I spend $2500-$3000 on a half barrel system, then in 6 months need to upgrade I have to spend all the time of upgrading and then parting out and selling the old system. Plus if I buy Blichmann, it only cost $500 to buy the 2 BBL extension which prices out to an extra $1500 to double the size of the system. If you buy 3 2 BBL kettles your looking at spending an extra $2500-$3000.

Sabco systems are for the lazy people who don't want to find the parts, and put it together themselves. I looked into Sabco originally and when I saw the price I laughed because, even though it looks like a immaculate system, $7k for a 10-15 gallon system is just silly when I could build a electric 1 BBL system for the same price.

I see this as an investment, and you only get out what you put into an investment. If I build the same system at 1/2 barrel the kettles only cost $200-$300 bucks less each and then have to turn around and spend another $2000 on kettles if, in 3-6 months, things start working out really well. That's what my local brewery did. They started to small for the big dream they had. Outgrew their system in less then a year, bought a 3 BBL system and outgrew that in 6 months and had to upgrade to a 5 BBL system. So they went from 1/2-5 BBL system in 2 years and it kept putting them in debt. The idea is when I officially open a B.O.P with a taproom, that I buy a system that will last me 3 years without having to buy new equipment.

I want an automated system so I can teach a friend or two who will exchange work for beer, so in the case I can't keep up time wise, I can teach someone to help me and trust that the odds of mistakes are minimized. Like somebody said, and we all know, its better to focus more time and energy into the post-brew part of it all. The less energy and focus the actual brew session takes, the more time spent on fermentation/marketing, recipe building of the beer. Plus I can make this a pilot system and buy it back off myself whenever the brewery expands.

Starting a brewery and pursuing the dream is by no means easy. So going into this I am already prepared to roll up my sleeves, sleep a few less hours, and grind it out. Luckily for me I have all you guys here to help with some guidance!
 
As much as I would love that I have to keep in mind that I live in a very seasonal town with a population of less than 7,000 people. The top brewery's around here do about that and one of them been in the game for probably 20 years so I would say that's probably a better 5 year goal where I am at.
 
I am located in Oregon. Craft beer country! Tons of competition opening everyday.

I think I will take your advice and go with a bit smaller kettle system. I am looking to go with 30 gallon SS Brew Tech kettles. I am still up in the air about my control panel and could use some input. The two that I am debating are 50amp www.cobrewingsystems.com panel which is the one he said he could get a little prepped for when/if an upgrade needs to be done to the panel and it was gonna cost just under $1450 shipping included. It has 3 PID controllers and 3 Temp probe connections. The other one is from www.highgravitybrew.com EBC III-D Panel which is also 50amps. That one only has 2 PID's and 2 Temperature probes and it runs at $1000 without shipping. So my question is, is the 3 PID's and temp probe worth the extra $400? The only thing I can think is to help with boil off in the BK to keep repeatability easier. I am leaning towards CO Brewing mainly because it looks like it would be a lot easier to upgrade to a 100amp board if I needed it to be.

I think for fermenters I am going to buy 3 Speidel 120L Fermenters and build a fermentation chamber with a A/C unit as the control. Thinking 5 1/2 feet long by 2 feet wide and just under 4 feet tall. That would easily fit the 3 fermenters with a little bit of wiggle room.
 
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