Brew on Premise Laws

[TreeHugger]

Hello all,
I live in Indianapolis and have recently discovered that the state's Alcohol and Tobacco commission has decided not to allow Brew-on-Premises establishments to operate within the state's borders. I want to open one in the state and need some assistance.

Has anyone experienced having to fight a commission or eliminating an ordinace/law at the state level? Particularly in the alcohol business?

I dont want to give up on this and will fight my ass off to make it happen.

Thoughts?

 

[Zeal]

Sam Cologonie of Dogfish head had to fight Delawares law of no brewerys are aloud inside the state. Before he opened the dogfish head brew pub. Maybe write them a message.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

It will depend whether it is a statute or a regulation promulgated by the state ABC. If it is a statute then the legislature will have to amend the law. If it is an administrative regulation than the agency will have to repeal the regulation and probably pass a new regulation permitting it, depending upon the limitations in the statutory language.

You will probably have to spend a lot of time (and money) lobbying the "right" people to make the change.

 

[TreeHugger]

It is def not a state law. I proposed the idea and the ATC basically discussed the premise and decided they were not comfortable allowing a set up such as this. Ive got the time and money, it is more personal now and I feel like being a maverick.

Any idea how the "right" people would be? I initially think of the local congressman/woman but who knows.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

You're going to want to speak with a lawyer who can research the law and tell you whether the law permits BOP or specifically what prohibits it. That's going to determine what your next steps are.

It may be the case that the state law is silent to the whole issue and there is nothing to stop you from doing it. An agency decision, made arbitrarily without authority under statute or established rule, lacks authority to be enforced. So just because they said they don't like the idea it doesn't mean that they can stop you from doing it (although they may come raid your shop and force you to defend it in court). Sometimes it makes sense to go to court and obtain an order to prevent the ATC from shutting you down. There are situations where the best way to win is to proceed with the business and fight it out in court. Since Indiana does not have a specific permit for BOP you might have to argue that BOP is within the homebrew statutes and it does not also fall within any other required brewing permit requirements. Of course if you lose you might face penalties, taxes, imprisonment, forfeiture of business assets, etc.

In the alternative, you could lobby your state legislature to carve out a BOP permit that protects what you want to do. You probably need to coordinate a large, state-wide lobby effort of the state legislature along with the local homebrew clubs. Most likely you will need your state legislature to carve out a new permit for BOP. An attorney should be able to find a consulting firm or law firm that can map out an effective lobbying effort.

 

[TreeHugger]

You're going to want to speak with a lawyer who can research the law and tell you whether the law permits BOP or specifically what prohibits it. That's going to determine what your next steps are.

It may be the case that the state law is silent to the whole issue and there is nothing to stop you from doing it. An agency decision, made arbitrarily without authority under statute or established rule, lacks authority to be enforced. So just because they said they don't like the idea it doesn't mean that they can stop you from doing it (although they may come raid your shop and force you to defend it in court). Sometimes it makes sense to go to court and obtain an order to prevent the ATC from shutting you down. There are situations where the best way to win is to proceed with the business and fight it out in court. Since Indiana does not have a specific permit for BOP you might have to argue that BOP is within the homebrew statutes and it does not also fall within any other required brewing permit requirements. Of course if you lose you might face penalties, taxes, imprisonment, forfeiture of business assets, etc.

In the alternative, you could lobby your state legislature to carve out a BOP permit that protects what you want to do. You probably need to coordinate a large, state-wide lobby effort of the state legislature along with the local homebrew clubs. Most likely you will need your state legislature to carve out a new permit for BOP. An attorney should be able to find a consulting firm or law firm that can map out an effective lobbying effort.

Thank you for the insights here Apache. I have done some research and there is indeed no speicfic provision in the state laws preventing someone from operating a BOP; but I am not aware of the ATC's authority to enforce a mandate that they originate. The state Master Sheriff in charge of liquor and tobacco enforcement has actually been awesome; he is helping me tailor my pitch and submitting it directly to the ATC commissioner.

I am submitting a couple more options to the ATC on Monday. I figure they want revenue and have not thought through the excise tax dollars and permit fees a business such as this would generate.

 

[TromboneGuy]

Yeah, if the initial rejection came from a flunky at the ATC, then the person you want to talk to is the head of the ATC. If HE poo-poos the idea, then you have to go over his head, probably to the secretary of state or governor's office. If there's no law against it, then all you need is someone in that chain of command to issue an official OK and probably some paperwork as verification. But you'll also want to talk to those same people about establishing a permit system so it can be made official and regulated (they like that word). That prevents the initial flunky from trying to pull strings to get the OK overturned because he's all butthurt that you went over his head.

 

[Pappers_]

The state Master Sheriff in charge of liquor and tobacco enforcement has actually been awesome; he is helping me tailor my pitch and submitting it directly to the ATC commissioner.

This seems like a helpful approach, approach it as a negotiation, figure out what their objections are and address them.

 

[Revvy]

Contact the American Homebrewer's Association, they might already have folks on this.

 

[TreeHugger]

Contact the American Homebrewer's Association, they might already have folks on this.

Another good idea to reach out to the AHBA; seems as if they are willing to help with legalization movements. I just finished up sending an email to the Director over there. Not sure if they worry about BOP, but it seems to me that by not allowing a BOP(which is essentially homebrewing at someone else's home because they have better equipment) then that is one step away from stripping many rights of general home brewers.

 

[runs4beer]

I on the same path here in new york, NYS has no law regarding BOP or for that matter home brewing. Just that if you make alcohol and SELL it you need a license and NYS's ABC consider BOP trafficking in alcoholic beverages (or at least one of the hacks answering the email) and therefore is illegal with out license. I Have a lawyer in my club that is going to help me and see if a BOP can be operated in a way that can keep it from being considered trafficking in alcoholic beverages.
Keep me posted on your journey and I do the same.

 

[slicksmix]

I hate to hijack your thread, but how can i find out if i can brew IN my LHBS in West Virginia?

 

[runs4beer]

Contact the American Homebrewer's Association, they might already have folks on this.

What they told me was I have to do the leg work and then they could help organize NYS home brewer to petition and told me I should buy an $85 book on opening a brewer. So not much help.

 

[runs4beer]

The fed. Government has clear laws regarding BOP but only a few states do, really if the laws of your state are not clear or a presecedence (sp?) wasn't set you'll need your own lawyer regardless of what you were told by anyone in your states government. The other way is to get a state senator to sponsor it and one way or another define how a BOP can operate.

 

[jmolson5]

First of all, keep us posted or give us a blog or website that we can check up on to see your progress. It seems to me that BOP's are a relatively untapped business model in the USA.

A lot of people have journeyed down this road (towards starting a BOP), but few have actually gone through with it, most seemingly due to legislative road blocks. Let us know what kind of progress you make!

 

[jmolson5]

How do you plan on providing supplies to your brewing clients? Are you going to be selling them premade recipe kits, or kits you design?

 

[sativen]

This place (before it burned down, I guess) was a "wine on premises":
http://www.grape-inspirations.com/

You could use it as an example, and maybe get a hold of the people who ran it.

 

[TreeHugger]

I on the same path here in new york, NYS has no law regarding BOP or for that matter home brewing. Just that if you make alcohol and SELL it you need a license and NYS's ABC consider BOP trafficking in alcoholic beverages (or at least one of the hacks answering the email) and therefore is illegal with out license. I Have a lawyer in my club that is going to help me and see if a BOP can be operated in a way that can keep it from being considered trafficking in alcoholic beverages.
Keep me posted on your journey and I do the same.

Hey man,
we should probably start a dialogue. I am sure we canhelp each other in a variety of ways to help make this happen forus both.

email me some time
[email protected]

 

[TreeHugger]

How do you plan on providing supplies to your brewing clients? Are you going to be selling them premade recipe kits, or kits you design?

No kits for BOP. With most breweries all recipes have to registered. So, I would provide about a dozen recipes of the most popular styles and eventually expand the choices as we expand.

I think some BOP allow for some tweaking of their recipes; unsure if there are regulations(there are so many) against this.

 

[TreeHugger]

First of all, keep us posted or give us a blog or website that we can check up on to see your progress. It seems to me that BOP's are a relatively untapped business model in the USA.

A lot of people have journeyed down this road (towards starting a BOP), but few have actually gone through with it, most seemingly due to legislative road blocks. Let us know what kind of progress you make!

I have started the next best thing. It seems Facebook is better for quick updates and dialogue back and forth as opposedto a blogpage. Too much management.

Follow my journey by friending(is that officially a word now?) me on Facebook @YouBrew.

Thanks for the encouragement

 

[runs4beer]

I didn't see any one else put this up yet so here's what I was saying about the Fed's definitions of BOP
The recipes are ether up to the state or the BOP owner depending on the state.
On the Sunday session about Ohio brewers they talk to the owner of the Brew Kettle(a BOP) about his BOP they can only brew recipes registered w/ Ohio's TTB.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Not sure if they worry about BOP, but it seems to me that by not allowing a BOP(which is essentially homebrewing at someone else's home because they have better equipment) then that is one step away from stripping many rights of general home brewers.

The big difference is that there's a commercial aspect. That invokes several state concerns, such as revenue, public health, public safety, etc.

 

[TreeHugger]

I didn't see any one else put this up yet so here's what I was saying about the Fed's definitions of BOP
The recipes are ether up to the state or the BOP owner depending on the state.
On the Sunday session about Ohio brewers they talk to the owner of the Brew Kettle(a BOP) about his BOP they can only brew recipes registered w/ Ohio's TTB.

Great info here. Does any of this trump the state rulings?

 

[runs4beer]

Great info here. Does any of this trump the state rulings?

No, that's never case. That's how it's illegal to home brew in Alabama.

 

[TreeHugger]

Update for this thread. Looks like it is going to be WAY too much red tape to get a BOP law approved in Indiana. doing the next best thing. A brew supply shop that also sells produced beers for pick up via growlers. I will have experienced home brewers compete to have their product produced(by the winner) and sold at the location. This would be considered an employee and is 100% legal in the state.

We would then split the proceeds of any sales on site.

Follow my journey and talk home brew @YouBrew via facebook

 

[Ramitt]

Interesting idea. I will be sure to visit when you are up and running.

 

[TreeHugger]

Interesting idea. I will be sure to visit when you are up and running.

thanks.

 

[user 98891]

Update for this thread. Looks like it is going to be WAY too much red tape to get a BOP law approved in Indiana. doing the next best thing. A brew supply shop that also sells produced beers for pick up via growlers. I will have experienced home brewers compete to have their product produced(by the winner) and sold at the location. This would be considered an employee and is 100% legal in the state.

We would then split the proceeds of any sales on site.

Follow my journey and talk home brew @YouBrew via facebook

That's a shame, my wife and I were actually talking about the idea of a BOP by us. I wonder if Michigan's laws are more friendly, we are less than 10 minutes from michigan.

 

[TreeHugger]

not sure about Michigan. Indiana Alcohol and Tobacco Commission are boners.

 

[1MountainManbrewsupply]

another shop in wv that wants to do bop in wv.

mountain man wine and brew supply.we would like to offer that to prospective homebrewers in the panhandle.

any one have info on beer or wine on premises in wv?