Brett C Orange Juice Cider

[oxpajama]

Hi, This is my first visit to the cider forum.

I started this Brett Claussenii Cider on 5/4/13.

1 gal Kirkland organic Orange Juice
2 gal Kirkland Apple juice
1 qrt Florida Orange juice, no pulp

1 tbsp pectin enzyme
1tsp yeast nutrient

OG 1052 pitched ~1/2 cup Brett C slurry at 66*, minimal aeration (only which comes from pouring juice). Visible fermentation by 5/6, raised to 70* over a few days.

6/8 Very funky, feet, sour, no surprise Orangey!.
6/26 racked to secondary, lots of lees, beginning to clear at surface. Tart funky, mineraly, hints of acetic acid. Moved to freezer, 35*

9/1/13 Racking off lees again. Still very funky, feet, mineraly. Gravity 1.000

I had brewed a regular cider before this with brett c that had oak, it was slightly phenolic, but not funky like this, it had pure O2 though.

Not sure how this will change as it ages, I may just leave it in glass for another six months, I will check on it at christmas time.

 

[Brann_mac_Finnchad]

Should be interesting--I'm curious how this will turn out as well.

Even with using pulp free OJ it will take forever for the sediment to fall. Or you can let it be murky--certainly won't hurt anything.

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

sparkoloid or gelatin should help clarify it some. Still be cloudy but you should be able to get light thru it.

Sounds interesting, everything ive seen with orange juice seems to come out undrinkable
Also are you topping up after racking or is that a 3gal carboy??

 

[oxpajama]

I'll move it to the temp controlled freezer when I attempt a lager next month before adding clarifiers. Before racking the top inch was beginning to clear, we'll see.

This is 3 gallons. Started with 3 gal +1 qrt OJ, forgot to mention I topped this up with a growler of cider that was separate from a failed batch. That was fermented with s-4 & burton yeast.

The most notable quirk is that its bone dry, but I'm perceiving sweetness. Its no so unlike diacetyl, in that its kinda slippery. I've heard some acids described as soft/sweet. Or it could be esters, with all the layers its hard to tell.

If its too intensely gym socky, I may consider blending, wheat beer comes to mind.

 

[oxpajama]

So this is cool. Orange juice naturally contains ferulic acid around levels of about 5 mg/100ml, according to http://www.phenol-explorer.eu/retention-factors/details/840

This may not be a revelation for some people. So brett eats this and 4-vinylguaiacol results. This was about 1/3 total orange juice and its aggressively funky, I imagine you could attain lower levels by adding maybe a quart of OJ to a beer that would call for some tartness/ funk, and the characteristic orange it adds.

I wonder if this why almost everyone ends up with an unpalatable OJ cider... even a normal yeast would process ferulic acid to some degree.

Heres another cool link talking about ferulic acid as a spoilage agent. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00017a011

This could be another thread but apparently ferulic acid also breaks down into(or is related to the production of?) Vanillin.
https://home.zhaw.ch/~yere/pdf/Teil95 - Expression of Multidisciplinary.pdf

 

[oxpajama]

quick update,

Did some more reading, I think in addition to/in place of vinyl compounds isovaleric acid (or 3-Methylbutanoic acid) is also present, the descriptors seem to fit.

Tasting: I pulled off a sample and force carbed with a carbonator cap.

Appearance: light yellow, quite clear.
Aroma: tart, funky or something... some yeasty aromas.
Flavor: tart, mineraly, noticeable yet diminished barnyard, hints of apple. Even as the glass finishes/warms there isn't much orange juice flavor, just the tartness you would expect. There is this mouthfeel quality I can't put my finger on, a thickness that passes over the tongue, to me its almost sweet and tangy.

Overall, this has changed noticeably for the better, but its not great, just interesting so far. My hopes are that the high acidity will lend itself to aging. Once I can juggle some carboys and free up a bottling bucket I will bottle and post pictures.

 

[oxpajama]

Update:

I've bottled this up, here is a pick from a few weeks ago. I force carbed a two litter bottle for tasting, thats the picture of the wine glass here. Carbed about 2 gal 2 liter with 75 grams cane sugar.

Orange Juice Cider tatings:
Appearance: very light yellow, light foamy head sticks around. slight haze, serving chilled.
Aroma: Bright over-ripe fruit, like a fruit basket. Hints of yeast and some barnyard, light phenols present as it warms up.
Flavor: Similar to aroma, bright over-ripe fruit, fruity zing, getting some savory flavor mid palate, slick creamy mouthfeel. Picking up orange juice flavors, but quite fruity.

Overall: Its OK, a novelty, but a good exploration of yeast behavior. The funk intensifies as the glass warms, despite being dry it tastes sweet and has a slick medium/full mouthfeel. I repeated this experiment in September but with MJ's M02 dry cider yeast, pics on that to follow.

Cheers.

 

[oxpajama]

So here we have the second incarnation but with cider yeast and some better apple juice.
Brew date 9/22/13

Ingredients
2.5 gal organic apple juice of different brands
1 gal organic orange juice
1/2 oz medium toast American Oak chips
Mangrove Jack's Cider yeast M02, rehydrated
Added 1/2 oz sweet orange peel to secondary

OG 1054, pure O2 60 seconds

1 tbsp pectin enzyme
1/2 tsp yeast nutrient

pitched at 62*, fermented at 71* peaking at 76* at one point. Racked to PET on 10/12, gravity 1.004, tastes like a soft fruity cider with some zing.