Bottling disaster

[SlitheryDee]

I had problems with the auto siphon that came with my Midwest supply brewing kit. The damn thing actually pumped tons of air into the beer as I was trying to start it. It did that TWICE to the same beer. Once when I racked it to a secondary to free up my main fermenter, and once when attempting to transfer to my bottling bucket. I don't think I could have oxidized the beer worse if I dropped an aquarium aerator in it for an hour. Then I had trouble with my bottling wand while bottling that beer. It dribbled everywhere in between filling bottles, so I ended up just bottling straight from the spigot, probably further aerating the beer.

Funny thing is, that beer is fully carbonated now and it tastes FANTASTIC. I'm working my way through it fast enough that I don't think the oxidation is going to be a problem. Go figure...

I replaced that autosiphon with a better model and it works like a dream. One smooth pump is all it needs to start the siphon, no bubbles, no clogging, no problems.

One thing I learned just from reading about auto siphon problems in general is that the plastic tubing you attach to the cane has to fit really snugly. So snugly in fact that it's recommended that you warm up the end of the hose to make it pliable enough to slip on, or else it's a major pain in the ass just to attach it. You might need to switch to a smaller diameter hose to keep it from drawing air bubbles at the point where it joins the racking cane.

Another thing I'm planning on doing before my next batch is to attach a small bit of half to one inch tubing to the bottom of my autosiphon to hold it a bit further above the level of the trub as I did notice it sucking some debris on my last bottling. That could be something for you to look at as well.

 

[Brownalemikie]

I had problems with the auto siphon that came with my Midwest supply brewing kit. The damn thing actually pumped tons of air into the beer as I was trying to start it. It did that TWICE to the same beer. Once when I racked it to a secondary to free up my main fermenter, and once when attempting to transfer to my bottling bucket. I don't think I could have oxidized the beer worse if I dropped an aquarium aerator in it for an hour. Then I had trouble with my bottling wand while bottling that beer. It dribbled everywhere in between filling bottles, so I ended up just bottling straight from the spigot, probably further aerating the beer.

Funny thing is, that beer is fully carbonated now and it tastes FANTASTIC. I'm working my way through it fast enough that I don't think the oxidation is going to be a problem. Go figure...

I replaced that autosiphon with a better model and it works like a dream. One smooth pump is all it needs to start the siphon, no bubbles, no clogging, no problems.

One thing I learned just from reading about auto siphon problems in general is that the plastic tubing you attach to the cane has to fit really snugly. So snugly in fact that it's recommended that you warm up the end of the hose to make it pliable enough to slip on, or else it's a major pain in the ass just to attach it. You might need to switch to a smaller diameter hose to keep it from drawing air bubbles at the point where it joins the racking cane.

Another thing I'm planning on doing before my next batch is to attach a small bit of half to one inch tubing to the bottom of my autosiphon to hold it a bit further above the level of the trub as I did notice it sucking some debris on my last bottling. That could be something for you to look at as well.

Another tip is to make sure the rubber gasket on the cane is always wet before inserting it into the siphon. If you leave it dry, the gasket will wear quickly. I always dip the gasket in Starsan before using.

 

[ChelisHubby]

For what it is worth I do use keg lube, I figured if he is a new brewer he might have Vaseline which is for all intents and purposes keglube.

 

[ChelisHubby]

So Chilli's. You say to just live up the ole cane real good and plop it in the tube?

That is it pretty m much , at the exposed joint I try to have a little xtra lube to seal with.

 

[Mothman]

I have successfully siphoned 18 batches with an auto siphon to a keg. I push the siphon all the way to the bottom. Some times i'll see a little bit of trub when it first touches the bottom but then it siphons clear until the bucket is almost empty.

I don't think that would have worked here... once all was said and done and I got to cleaning up, I noted that I had a THICK layer of trub / sludge in the primary bucket.

I'd estimate there was at least 2 inches, maybe 3, of goop, most of which looked like hop debris (I had dumped everything from the kettle into the primary). it wasn't a compact layer of trub, is was really loose and sloppy, and easily disturbed, floating back up into the beer, and I think I ended up sucking it up even trying to hold the siphon above it.

If I'd placed it right down to the bottom, I am pretty sure it would have clogged immediately.

I had a great chat on the phone with bajaedition, and got some suggestions (I will consider your recommendation for a future upgrade, Jim ... thanks again for taking the time... this is such a great community! )

In the mean time, I will hope for the best for what I got out of this batch, and start planning the next.

I think next time I'll try to hop in bags, or if not that, at least try to keep as much of the trub and debris out of my primary as I can, so lessen the problem of so much sludge to deal with later.

I feel like the problem of getting the beer from the primary to the bottling bucket should be / will be a pretty easy fix.

The rest of Brew # 1 went great... the steeping, the boil, pitching, temperature control was right where I wanted it, gravity all seemed good, etc.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't think the carbonation will be high enough to cause bottle bombs. To be on the safe side check one after a week, and then again a few days later, if they gush, put them all in the refrigerator.

I absolutely love my autosiphons. The first one crazed at the curve of the cane and started leaking. I brushed on some liquid bandage and have it as a back up. I replaced it with a 1/2" one.

93 beers and a dozen wines without problems. I would not live without one.

Tip your fermenting bucket. Put a thick book or something under one edge. Then hold the siphon a couple inches above the bottom. As the level of the wort goes down lower the end of the autosiphon until you see trub getting sucked in. Then pull it out. I bag my hops and when done siphoning there is less than a quart of trub/beer/yeast left on the bottom.

 

[Mothman]

This thread is definitely meandering ,but,I'm getting good info.

In terms of hop bags, I've been advised.that "hop socks" don't always work the best, and often allow a lot.of the hop debris out.

What is the preferred type of hop bag? A nylon mesh?

 

[tr08]

I no longer user auto-siphon. Cold crash then siphon with just traditional cane. works like magic.

 

[BGHSmt7]

For what it is worth I do use keg lube, I figured if he is a new brewer he might have Vaseline which is for all intents and purposes keglube.

Not to split hairs, but vaseline is petroleum based, keglube is silicone based. completely different compounds.

You should never use vaseline on rubber surfaces. It can and will cause the rubber to erode/harden/break down.

+1 on using the keg lube though

 

[bajaedition]

are you sure the O ring is rubber?

 

[brewbama]

It's most likely Buna-N

 

[BGHSmt7]

Regardless, peteoleum jelly should not be used. Yes, it will work. However, it will damage the seals. As a SCUBA equipment repairman, whether it's rubber or viton or anything else, you do not use petroleum based products unless you want to replace everything.

 

[bajaedition]

OK I can dig the SCUBA side of it, Did not know that there was a big SCUBA industry in Chicago however. I guess with that lake there would be.

But if the o ring is petroleum based, as petroleum jelly is, How does it damage it?

I do not want to argue, I am really wanting to learn here. I mean if one substance can ruin it, then why can not any other? Is there a correct substance to use, or only a few "suspect" substances not to use that we really do not know if we can or can not?

 

[Mothman]

I'm not even sure what you guys are talking about. lol

I use vaseline where the tubing meet the racking cane it stop airleaks .

I understood him to be saying he uses the lube where the hose slips on the cane, not sure what o-ring is being discussed.

 

[SunnyDownSnuff]

Just a comment on pitching out the disheveled beer...I keep an empty plastic gallon jug on hand for just such an occasion. Siphon the mess into the jug, stick it in the refrigerator, let the schmutz settle, bottle up the remains the next day. Never give up, never throw out -- Especially a gallon!!

Also, had the exact same problem with air and losing siphon. Finally Gave up on the siphon starter 30+ batches ago because that seemed to be the culprit for drawing air. Pulled the pump thing off and threw it away. Now I suck on the end of the hose every time, haven't had a problem.

I realize my methods are a bit unorthodox but nobody turns down my beer.

 

[BGHSmt7]

If it's truly petroleum based, then it's most likely not an issue. I work with many rubber-ish products and I always use a silicone lubricant to lubricate. We used the term o-ring generically. I was referring to the black seal of the racking cane that creates the seal on the auto-siphon.

I've been taught that you should never use vaseline as a lubricant where a rubber or polymer-based rubber sealing surface is used. It can degrade the product and voids most warranties. This is for both the SCUBA industry as well as the watch industry (I work at a jewelry store as well).

If you remember from high school sex ed, you should never use vaseline with a condom. This is the same reasoning. The vaseline can and most likely will attack the sealing surface and degrade the o-rings in a keg or the gasket of the siphon.

As kinky as it sounds, KY jelly should be safe. Though, explaining why it's near the kegs can make for some nice stories

 

[bajaedition]

If it's truly petroleum based, then it's most likely not an issue. I work with many rubber-ish products and I always use a silicone lubricant to lubricate. We used the term o-ring generically. I was referring to the black seal of the racking cane that creates the seal on the auto-siphon.

I've been taught that you should never use vaseline as a lubricant where a rubber or polymer-based rubber sealing surface is used. It can degrade the product and voids most warranties. This is for both the SCUBA industry as well as the watch industry (I work at a jewelry store as well).

If you remember from high school sex ed, you should never use vaseline with a condom. This is the same reasoning. The vaseline can and most likely will attack the sealing surface and degrade the o-rings in a keg or the gasket of the siphon.

As kinky as it sounds, KY jelly should be safe. Though, explaining why it's near the kegs can make for some nice stories

glad we cleared that important fact up. Guess using anal lube is ok, can use it with codoms

 

[Soulshine2]

Well, what a disappointing end to my first batch of homebrew..

After my first brew went through brew day and fermentation (for 2.5 weeks) very well, bottling tonight was a total flop.

All was going well to start, until I got about half of the beer into the bottling bucket, at which point the siphon started bubbling like crazy, and I lost siphon. Tried several times with the auto-siphon to get it started again, and it just wouldn't go, and I introduced a lot of air bubbles.

Try as I might, I just couldn't get it to siphon, so I eventually committed the cardinal sin of just using the cane (out of the auto siphon) and sucking to start the siphon. I siphoned the first bit into my 5 gallon sanitizer bucket, sticking the end into the solution and sloshing it around, then back to the bottling bucket. Got a bit more siphoned, then the siphon failed again, full of air bubbles, then stopped completely.

In the mean time, I'd had my hands all over the damn siphon hose end that was now in the beer as well, although hopefully my hands were fairly well sanitized, as I'd had them in the starsan a lot, including as I was trying to sanitize the siphon hose after having my dumb old mouth on it.

I think the problem was that I accidentally put the siphon too low in the primary, and it sucked up a bunch of the hop debris, of which there was a ton, and it blocked up the siphoning cane.

In the end I gave up trying to get more into the bottling bucket, leaving behind a little more than a gallon of trub/beer, where I was guessing I might end up leaving behind 0.25-0.5 gallons. Seeing as I only had a little under 3.5 gallons in the primary, that lost gallon hurt.

So I bottled what I had, and that part went pretty smoothly, using a bottling wand on a spigot. The spigot leaked around the washer a bit, but that's OK... overall, the actual bottling was a breeze.

But... and it's a huge freaking disappointing BUT... I ended up, after being so damn careful for the last 2.5 weeks, with likely a bunch of oxidation potential, potential for infection, and because I had batch primed for a little over 3 gallons of beer but only managed to get about 2.2 gallons, I'm afraid I've badly over-carbonated and will have grenades instead of drinkable beer.


Any suggestions for me?

Specifically:

- re: the carbonation, should I be popping the caps after a week and then recapping, or something, to try to avoid bottle bombs?

- for my next batch, being as it's in a plastic bucket and I can't see the trub layer, how do I do a better job of siphoning without clogging up the works by sucking up debris? Just be more careful and try to keep the siphon just below the surface?

My first ( of only 2 so far) I just hooked up my wand to the bottling bucket spigot via short length of clear hose with a loop in it. The spigot is far enough over the bottom to let whatever trub settle to the bottom . WHEN I can see the trub , I just tip the bucket with a rolled up starsan dampened dishrag to get the last "clean" beer out and into the bottle. If by chance some trub gets into the hose ,I can see it and simply stop the wand before trub gets to the bottle.

 

[SlitheryDee]

OK I can dig the SCUBA side of it, Did not know that there was a big SCUBA industry in Chicago however. I guess with that lake there would be.

But if the o ring is petroleum based, as petroleum jelly is, How does it damage it?

I do not want to argue, I am really wanting to learn here. I mean if one substance can ruin it, then why can not any other? Is there a correct substance to use, or only a few "suspect" substances not to use that we really do not know if we can or can not?

I'm just spitballing here, but it's not unheard of that you can dissolve one petroleum based thing in another petroleum based thing. Maybe that happens to the o ring to some extent.

 

[bajaedition]

This thread is definitely meandering ,but,I'm getting good info.

In terms of hop bags, I've been advised.that "hop socks" don't always work the best, and often allow a lot.of the hop debris out.

What is the preferred type of hop bag? A nylon mesh?

OK guys the OP wants to get this back on track, we have had fun but lets save this thread

Mothman I can not answer the mesh vs bag question, I do know I have used the socks and they are a disaster. I now use the bags. you can source bags in micron level, but how long they atay at that level with use is debatable

I see a lot of guys in the videos using the version that has a frame that sits in top of the kettle and the bag is in the water, There is a name for it. anyway they just pour into it each addition so it you do not need multiple bags

I use just regular hops bags, my kettle has a tube screen inside, and I use a filtered funnel when entering the primary. That filter in the funnel does clog up about 4 times, I keep a bucket of starsans around on brewing day and I just use that to rinse out the filter and keep going

I have very little residue entering the fermenter I have to worry about later

I use pellet hops, I am a way from any brew store and that seems to be the best way for me. If using fresh whole hops, maybe I would have less trouble with this.

It is one of the sticking points I have always had with the entire process

 

[Mothman]

Thanks Baja, yeah, it was you that said you didn't see great success with "hop socks".

Just not sure what constitutes a hop sock vs. a bag.... I've seen bags advertised as hop bags that renage from muslin, to cheesecloth, to nylon or polyester mesh.

When you say you use "regular hop bags", what does that mean?

Something like this? https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Fine_Nylon_Bag_8_x_6_p/f-nylon-bag-8-6.htm

Or something like this: https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Hop_addition_Muslin_Steeping_bag_p/3x5-muslin-hop-addition-bag.htm

 

[bajaedition]

the 8 by 6 bag does not have a draw string but you can do something about that. the other one is to small, pellet hops expand a lot.

the socks are like these
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000E6LGZ8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

they release so much as they are stretchy and the hole stretch open

 

[Mothman]

Thanks Baja. I wasn't specifically meaning to ask about the bag size, just the nylon vs muslin.

 

[bajaedition]

I would go with the nylon, the muslin brings up issues of the weave opening up, muslin is a looser weave.


look at it like this, if you want good sheets for your bed you get a percale, if you want to save money it is a muslin as the thread count is so much lower

 

[Mothman]

Thank you, sir.