I routinely bottle traditionally (CO2) carbonated beers off of my keg. Can a counter pressure bottle filler be used to bottle nitro beer? I’m guessing not (or why would Guinness have gone through the pain of inventing their widget?), but wanted to see if anyone had any insights.
Bottling Beer on Nitro
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The short answer is: no.
The long answer is nitrogen does not dissolve in beer to a functional level. Which is the reason for the widget...
Cheers!
The long answer is nitrogen does not dissolve in beer to a functional level. Which is the reason for the widget...
Cheers!
I've been curious of the process behind the widget-less nitro packaging (a la Left Hand). Wonder if they're dosing with liquid nitrogen or something.
I don't think it's something that'd be particularly practical at home. Nitro draft is easy to do at home. Cask and sparkler as well (if you can consume it all fast enough).
Most breweries (responsible ones at least) will refuse to fill growlers of nitro beers (or cask ones) for this reason.
I don't think it's something that'd be particularly practical at home. Nitro draft is easy to do at home. Cask and sparkler as well (if you can consume it all fast enough).
Most breweries (responsible ones at least) will refuse to fill growlers of nitro beers (or cask ones) for this reason.
I've had Left Hand's Milk Stout in glass. Sans widget at best it's a weak impression of a good nitro pour. They say "pour hard" for a reason.
Otoh, Young's Double Chocolate Stout in a widget can isn't bad at all - though still a mile from a good faucet pour...
Cheers!
Otoh, Young's Double Chocolate Stout in a widget can isn't bad at all - though still a mile from a good faucet pour...
Cheers!
Some searching I came across Nitro Merlin (which I haven't had) from Firestone Walker indeed being dosed by liquid nitrogen in lieu of widget (they advise the same hard pour). I know Left Hand has been hush about their process. It's been a while since I've had it, I just recall the lack of widget.
On this topic, my understanding is that Guinness started nitrogenating as a way to simulate the cask experience. Is this accurate? Would love some more history on this if you know some
It's a two step process:
1 - bottle normally with CO2
2 - lie about your beer having anything to do with nitrogen (call it "marketing" if that makes you feel any better
)
There's so much lore with Guinness that it's hard to say what's reality. I've heard that story as well but no idea if it's true. Cask and sparkler does indeed look similar to a nitro pour (and a sparkler functions similarly to the restrictor plate on a nitro faucet).
You can emulate the Guinness nitro widget with a plastic syringe. Do this with an under carbonated beer (1.2 vol CO2 or less). Pour from bottle/draw from keg your HB clone into the glass to about 3/4 full. With syringe, pull equal parts beer and air (which is 79% N2) in that order. It doesn’t take much so experiment to find ideal amount. With syringe just under surface of your beer inject this back into glass. Observe the N2 surge . Be aware, if you don’t under-carb the beer you will get an instant gusher.
. Be aware, if you don’t under-carb the beer you will get an instant gusher.So if I have a keg on nitro that I want to bottle off to open the keg up for a new brew, would I bottle in the same way as usual (counter pressure)? That seems like a recipe for disaster given the high pressures involved, though... would I basically want to release all the N2, pressurize with CO2 to desired (low) carbonation, bottle, and then use the syringe method on opening?You can emulate the Guinness nitro widget with a plastic syringe. Do this with an under carbonated beer (1.2 vol CO2 or less). Pour from bottle/draw from keg your HB clone into the glass to about 3/4 full. With syringe, pull equal parts beer and air (which is 79% N2) in that order. It doesn’t take much so experiment to find ideal amount. With syringe just under surface of your beer inject this back into glass. Observe the N2 surge
Are you using pure N2 with your keg or beer gas (N2 + CO2)? Beer does not absorb the N2 and will not affect carb level, so, if using just N2 your beer will be flat in the bottle. I suspect you’ve got a mix of N2 and CO2 on your keg. If so, you’ll want to set keg pressure based on partial pressure of CO2 to achieve 1-1.2 volumes of CO2 in your beer and in your bottles. You can then bottle with and use the syringe method when decanting from the bottles.
I haven’t actually tried this yet, but the idea is to carbonate the beer on pure co2 and then switch to pure n2 for serving. I can then also use the pure n2 for coffee or wine on tap instead of getting a 3rd cylinder.
Am I understanding right that the idea behind the syringe is that all needed n2 is introduced at serving? Or does some n2 actually go into the bottle?
That's be at serving only. Injecting air into a bottle is a horrendously bad plan.
Sure, but it’s not necessary to somehow get the N2 into the bottle?
Injecting any O2 into the bottle, unless needed for the yeast if bottle conditioning, is bad.
To clarify, you need to keep your keg under the appropriate CO2 partial pressure to maintain carbonation levels in the keg. If you don't, the beer will eventually go flat as you draw from the keg. N2 is not absorbed by the beer and does not affect carbonation levels of the beer and doesn't need to go into the bottle. N2 is used to provide that creamy head only at serving and must be injected at serving time whether through the gas pushing the beer from your keg or via injection via other means such as the syringe method or Guinness's widget in the can. The N2 widget that Guinness packages in their Draught cans hold N2 inside it from the pressure inside the can. When the pressure is released by popping the tab on the can this allows the N2 to escape from the widget and start the N2 surge process in the can as you pour into your glass.
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Thanks—this is really helpful.
To make sure I’m understanding correctly—a fully carbonated beer put into a keg with 30+ psi nitrogen would decarbonate despite the headspace pressure being considerably higher than that need to achieve its carbonation with a head of CO2?
Supposing one has only the two pure gases separately, could the carbonation be maintained by occasionally venting the headspace, pressurizing with CO2 to the pressure needed to achieve a desired carbonation, and then topping up to serving pressure with nitrogen?
I think you're missing the point. Without using a widget, the method breweries seem to be using is liquid nitrogen, and the result is somewhere between "not as good" and "marketing stunt and nothing more".
Unless you've got a line on widget cans/bottles, it's not gonna work very well. If you have the equipment and know-how to dose liquid nitrogen into your product at packaging, that's your only other option.
The 20% oxygen in the air if you were to inject it will oxidize the beer seriously and quickly. Fine when done in the glass at the point of serving. Not so much for anything you intend to keep beyond a day or two. And probably still wouldn't have the effect when you pour it later.
I get that adding air at any time right before serving is a problem. The question is whether the syringe method would work with any beer, or must the beer be packaged with a little nitrogen already dissolved in it (but with no widget) for the syringe method to work. As I understand it can work with any beer, right?
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It's a two step process:
1 - bottle normally with CO2
2 - lie about your beer having anything to do with nitrogen (call it "marketing" if that makes you feel any better
Isn't the boiling temperature of liquid N something like -320°F ? How could a homebrewer (or even a commercial brewer) package beer, if that's what the OP is suggesting.
OTOH, a "nitro" beer is a traditionally (low) carbonated beer dispensed under high pressure past a restricter plate tap with beer gas (gaseous N and CO2). The CO2 goes into solution at storage and dispensing temperatures/pressures but N does not. Ergo, the widget in can packaged Guinness, et.al.
If you tried to bottle a "nitro" beer sans widget wouldn't you get an explosive uncapping followed by a flat, under-carbed pour in the glass?
Absent a nitrogen widget and a home canner, the only way I can see a homebrewer to make "nitro" beer would be from a kegerator with a Stout faucet pushed from a keg with beer gas.
Brooo Brother
The syringe method will work with any beer. Do it in the glass when serving.
DuncB
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How about the Guinness surger unit, can use a vibrating ultrasonic jewellery cleaner which are easily available. They say that the guiness from the can used for the surger is the same as you would get from the keg ( so different from the canned normal guinness product).
Plenty of you tube videos about this, it looks a very flat pour until the surger is used. So maybe it's just low CO2 vols in the variant that the surger / jewellery cleaner enlivens.
Plenty of you tube videos about this, it looks a very flat pour until the surger is used. So maybe it's just low CO2 vols in the variant that the surger / jewellery cleaner enlivens.
I had the same thought but that seems to be the practice even with the widgets. I can only assume that it's a near instantaneous injection right as the can/bottle is sealed. The widget allows for the nitrogen to be re-released into the beer (by taking in the expanding nitrogen and a small measure of beer, below the surface then re-released when the can is depressurized) at pouring instead of just in the headspace as it'd be otherwise. Where it doesn't seem to have nearly the same effect. I suppose all they're essentially doing is having the headspace in the can/bottle be nitrogen instead of CO2 (via capping on foam of nitrogen bubbles instead of CO2 bubbles). Which would explain the shake and pour hard advice.
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I'll admit I never gave a lot of thought about how those widgets work, other than to assume it was some manner of pressurized frangible bubble that kept the N2 in a compressed state, with the frangible bubble at or below equilibrium with the internal pressure inside the can. Then, when the can tab was pulled and the internal pressure was released, the lower ambient pressure would allow the N2 bubble to burst, thus releasing the contents to cascade the beer in the glass. As to the mechanics of getting a pressurized widget into the can without bursting, I never figured that mystery.
Brooo Brother
Seems like a hollow vessel with a very small hole in it and that's about it. As the liquid nitrogen evaporates and expands inside the sealed can/bottle, some is forced inside the widget to balance the pressures. The widget isn't at a different pressure than the rest of the package at that point. When the pressure drops on opening, that nitrogen that was forced into the widget is jetted back out into the beer to again rebalance the pressures. If I understand correctly.
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Ahhh! That makes perfect sense. I can't believe that design never occurred to me. Please don't rat me out to any of my Engineering profs.
Vale will certainly chime in to tell me where I'm wrong or clarify some detail I'm missing lol
lol! Tighten your chin strap
I think you might have missed my point. My point is, you can't make a "nitro" canned or bottled beer without a widget but you sure as hell can lie about it and that's what these breweries are doing.
That's where the liquid nitrogen comes in. It takes a while for the liquid nitrogen to evaporate and for pressure inside the gadget to increase past the bursting point and by then the can is filled and sealed and pressure inside the can is already higher than the pressure inside the widget preventing it from bursting.
Correct except that the liquid N2 is placed inside the widget at packaging (for which you obviously need specialized equipment). If you just added a drop of N2 to the can it would all end up in the headspace and none of it could get into the widget which is submerged at the bottom of the can, so that it can make nice tiny N2 bubbles as it releases its payload upon opening.
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OK, that makes additional sense. What is still unclear to my mechanical brain is the "how" liquid N gets injected into the widget (obviously low temperature/high pressure) and then gets into the packaging container and sealed up without bursting, as it will do when the container is opened before serving.
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Liquid nitrogen has no pressure until it starts warming up and evaporates. By then the can is sealed and internal pressure has built up preventing the widget from bursting prematurely (premature nitrogenation?
Oh yeah. My "Duh."
My powers of deduction can be slow, but at least they're faulty!
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