Bottle now? Wk 4 not@ FG

[VigII]

This was my fourth attempt at home brewing and this one has me puzzled. The short take is it's been in primary for four weeks and has airlock activity @ 2 bubbles/min. And current corrected FG @1.0197 . Target is 1.015. The main question is -Should I bottle or wait?

It seems like a long time to me so here is some background:
Style is a Brown Porter. Wyeast Witbread 1099 850 mL starter. 6 gal @ OG 1.047. 1.5 week@64F, 1.5 week@ 70F, 1 week@ 67F, 1day@75F. 2 1/2 cups of cold brew coffee added at 10 days, 1-2 bubbles/min. Yeast started fast, @ day 1 180bubbles/min and slowed from there but there has always been some airlock activity, albeit slow. I shook it a little the day I moved it to DA rest temp of 70. I'm thinking the 1099 flocked out on me since I'm not @ target FG 1.015 yet. I like some opinions on my choice to wait longer to get closer to FG. Did it flock out on me and should I give it another littl stir?

OG 1.047
Wyeast

 

[PastorofMuppets]

If you get the same reading exactly after 3 days or so between tests then you are good to bottle.
If its going lower then wait until you get same readings several days apart.

The target is just that a target. Sometimes yeast doesnt attenuate as much as we hope it will. Temp and all sorts of other factors are at play.
The air lock is not a measurement tool. It means nothing if it bubbles. Hydeometer readings mean something and will tell you what to do.

 

[VigII]

Thanks for the guidance, PoM. I was under the impression if I'm seeing CO2 production the yeast was still attenuating the remaining fermentable sugars. I supose that just means they're still working but at what rate and any further attenuation would be minimal. At least there still there and ready to carbonate the bottles.

Although today is the first hydrometer reading I've taken, I did check it with my uncalibrated refractometer. It reads on the arbitrary scale (0-30%), not directly to Brix. 6 days ago it read 5.9% and today it reads 5.9% from the same sample I read an uncorrected 1.018 on today. Still torn between waiting or bottling. I need more patients - I don't want bottles going off!

 

[unionrdr]

It can also mean it's stalled for whatever reason. Swirl up some yeast & make sure it's warmed to around 70F. It can start again in as much as the next day. It can knock off that last few points. I'm doing that with my current one at 5 weeks+ right now. Gotta check FG later to see if it finished off the las 6 points or so.

 

[IslandLizard]

Leave it at 75°F for 3 more days and do another hydrometer reading. If the same, ready to bottle. In the mean time it is still conditioning, so your patience is not wasted.

 

[scottab]

It can also mean it's stalled for whatever reason. Swirl up some yeast & make sure it's warmed to around 70F. It can start again in as much as the next day. It can knock off that last few points. I'm doing that with my current one at 5 weeks+ right now. Gotta check FG later to see if it finished off the las 6 points or so.

I agree here it's prob stalled and your current reading seems a bit high unless you had unfermentable sugars in your recipe... would rouse the yeast by stirring with a sanitised spoon then wait another 1-2 weeks.

 

[JLem]

At first glance, your current gravity is not too far from your target. However, given that the OG was only 1.047, this does seem high. I think more details are needed -
What was your recipe?

 

[darrenbrews]

I'm having a similar situation.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/holy-balls-kolsch-still-fermenting-5-weeks-399685/

I'd give it a few more days as the others have suggested.

 

[VigII]

At first glance, your current gravity is not too far from your target. However, given that the OG was only 1.047, this does seem high. I think more details are needed -
What was your recipe?

6.6 lbs Mutons light LME

1 Lb Hugh Baird Carastan Malt 30*L
1 Lb Franco-Belges Kiln Coffee Malt*L
0.5 Lb Thomas Fawcet Brown Malt *L
Steeped @ 153 for 60 minutes. Before the LME I read 2 Brix on brother's calibrated refractometer.
- now here's where scottab might have hit on something ... I did 'encourage' the grains to drain by giving the bags a little squeeze, not hard but I did do it a little. Got told about it too late but I'm not picking up and tannins in the spegee sample. Was concerned that the Whitbread 1099 flocked out on me but that didn't occur to me until week 3 had passed. Now I'm thinking in might be both. As stated, read@ 2 Brix.

Added LME
60 min boil @ 5.7 gal
1.5 oz Fuggle pellets @ boil for 60 min
0.5 oz Fuggle pellets @ 10

cool to 74* in 4 min w/immersion cooler
post boil OG 1.058 @5 gal, diluted with 1.2 gal filtered well water to fermenting volume of 6.2 gal, OG of 1.047 spegee

Siphoned to bucket fermenter thru double screen and funnel w/fine screen
Aerated Wort between two buckets 3x
Pitched stir-plate 18 hr old 850 mL starter Wyeast Whitbread, 850 mL starter in 1.039 spegee DME wort. Wyeast calculator said target concentration was 8.33 million/mL. Pitch tempt matched 74*. Stirred.
Moved to 73* space. Airlock activity in 3 hours
Moved to 61-63* space, switched airlock to 16 oz star-san in growler w/1/2" tube - bubble rate 180+/minute that slowed over 4 days. Remained @ cool temp for 1 wk. Switched back to typical airlock.
Added 20 oz of cold pressed coffee thru airlock grommet ~ day 10. Swirled slightly.
The rest of the temp/fermentation history is in my original post.

Gave it a good swirling about 3 hours ago. @ 75* now and airlock perking @ 3 small bubbles/ min. This is day 28 in primary but it's been mostly in mid to low temps for Witbread 1099 ...

It tastes good. I just don't want the bottles to explode when primed.

Thanks!

 

[PastorofMuppets]

are you checking with a hydrometer or refractometer? The hydrometer is the only way to check FG. Bottom line is if you get yeast back in suspension you will have to wait another couple weeks. If you get the same hydrometer reading a week apart then you are safe to bottle.

 

[Yooper]

A 1.019-1.020 gravity is a perfectly reasonable for an extract batch, especially for a beer with less fermentables (the cara-malts, the extract brand, and coffee malt). If it was checked with a refractometer, that may not even be the actual SG, as they aren't accurate when alcohol is in the mix.


In any case, if the SG hasn't changed in the last three days, it's done. It can be bottled.

 

[scottab]

A 1.019-1.020 gravity is a perfectly reasonable for an extract batch, especially for a beer with less fermentables (the cara-malts, the extract brand, and coffee malt). If it was checked with a refractometer, that may not even be the actual SG, as they aren't accurate when alcohol is in the mix.

In any case, if the SG hasn't changed in the last three days, it's done. It can be bottled.

Not that i would disagree with an experienced brewer since i'm still a novice but after about 14 extract brews both with and without steeping grains, i've found that they usually meet target fg range... if he was to bottle without it hitting a little closer to his final and prime with sugar wouldn't this tend to reactivate his yeast and risk bottle bomb? Would it not be better to boil a cup of water and throw a few tsp if yeast nutrient or something else that would get his yeast active?

 

[Yooper]

Not that i would disagree with an experienced brewer since i'm still a novice but after about 14 extract brews both with and without steeping grains, i've found that they usually meet target fg range... if he was to bottle without it hitting a little closer to his final and prime with sugar wouldn't this tend to reactivate his yeast and risk bottle bomb? Would it not be better to boil a cup of water and throw a few tsp if yeast nutrient or something else that would get his yeast active?

If you look at the recipe, it's not probably going to EVER get to that "target" FG. It's got dark malts, extract, and crystal- all which are less fermentable than some other ingredients. Some extract brands are notoriously less fermentable than others. One, Laaglander, is something like 60% fermentable! (I don't think that's made anymore, but there are some like it). The LME was boiled for 60 minutes, which would increase maillard reactions (similar to caramelization).

His "target" FG is one from the recipe perhaps, but it's not that you have to hit a number for fermentation to be over.

I'm drinking an oatmeal stout right now. It's rich and creamy and I love it. The FG was 1.019.

The beer probably tastes just great- and that is the important thing. To mess with it now, to get the finished beer "active" again would risk oxidation, infection, and a too-low FG in the end. A brown porter is pretty darn good at 1.019.

Next time, the beer can be aerated more before the yeast is pitched, or the bulk of the LME can be added at flame out instead of the beginning of the boil. Both of those things would encourage a lower FG. But to mess with it now would be a huge mistake.

 

[scottab]

Next time, the beer can be aerated more before the yeast is pitched, or the bulk of the LME can be added at flame out instead of the beginning of the boil. Both of those things would encourage a lower FG. But to mess with it now would be a huge mistake.

I'm def not to the point yet that i know the sciences behind the recipe's and would prob at least tried to rouse the yeast to hit the target. But if youre saying that isn't always necessary i'll believe someone with much more experience than me.

 

[pabloj13]

are you checking with a hydrometer or refractometer? The hydrometer is the only way to check FG. Bottom line is if you get yeast back in suspension you will have to wait another couple weeks. If you get the same hydrometer reading a week apart then you are safe to bottle.

None of this is true. You can check FG with a refractometer if you use the correction spreadsheets/formulas. And rousing the yeast, should they decide to go that way, does not add weeks onto the fermentation. If you rouse and they're done, they'll just drop right back out. Maybe a couple days...

I'm with Yooper. Definitely do not add yeast nutrient. Check over a few days. If it's stable, bottle it.

 

[ajf]

In my experience, stuck fermentations do happen very occasionally with highly flocculant yeasts, but it is very rare (less than 5% of the time in my case). When it does happen, a rousing has always cured the problem for me.
You say you have increased the temperature to 75F. This will cause the beer to expand, which will cause bubbling through the airlock for two reasons:

1. The beer expands by a certain amount, and will force that amount of air (or CO2) out of the airlock.
2. As the beer warms, some of the CO2 dissolved in the beer will be released, and this will cause bubbling in the airlock.
​

You can use a refractometer to detect when fermentation has stopped. When the refractometer reading stops dropping, no further fermentation is going on. Determining the correct FG reading from a refractometer however is not reliable if you want an accurate reading.

You say that the current SG (temperature corrected) is 1.0197. Have you calibrated your hydrometer by testing the gravity of water at the calibration temperature? It is not uncommon for hydrometers to read a few points off. If you have not checked, it is quite possible that the true gravity is much closer to the forecast than you think.

Hope this helps.

-a.

 

[pabloj13]

You say you have increased the temperature to 75F. This will cause the beer to expand, which will cause bubbling through the airlock for two reasons:
1. The beer expands by a certain amount, and will force that amount of air (or CO2) out of the airlock.
2. As the beer warms, some of the CO2 dissolved in the beer will be released, and this will cause bubbling in the airlock.

+1



This is just an empty carboy warming up...

 

[PastorofMuppets]

None of this is true. You can check FG with a refractometer if you use the correction spreadsheets/formulas. And rousing the yeast, should they decide to go that way, does not add weeks onto the fermentation. If you rouse and they're done, they'll just drop right back out. Maybe a couple days...

I'm with Yooper. Definitely do not add yeast nutrient. Check over a few days. If it's stable, bottle it.

Not sure its fair to dismiss what I said so easily.



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/refractometer-final-gravity-fermented-beer-333712/

Why bother with conversions when you can get a totally accurate number by using a hydrometer.

and this is true regardless. "If you get the same hydrometer reading a week apart then you are safe to bottle."

This beer is probably going to be amazing and trying to get a couple points is silly if the hydrometer is staying put. Momma didnt raise no *******.

 

[pabloj13]

Not sure its fair to dismiss what I said so easily.



https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/refractometer-final-gravity-fermented-beer-333712/

Why bother with conversions when you can get a totally accurate number by using a hydrometer.

and this is true regardless. "If you get the same hydrometer reading a week apart then you are safe to bottle."

This beer is probably going to be amazing and trying to get a couple points is silly if the hydrometer is staying put. Momma didnt raise no *******.

Because one uses two drops and the other uses 100mL. When I got my refractometer, I checked 10-20 samples with both hydrometer and rafractometer. I still do this with every FG. They are always within 0.002 of each other. Most of the time they are dead on. It's personal preference, but it's wrong to say you can't use a refractometer.

 

[Yooper]

Because one uses two drops and the other uses 100mL. When I got my refractometer, I checked 10-20 samples with both hydrometer and rafractometer. I still do this with every FG. They are always within 0.002 of each other. Most of the time they are dead on. It's personal preference, but it's wrong to say you can't use a refractometer.

I've never had one post-fermentation refractometer reading match my hydrometer reading, even with the calculations.

I know the beer is done (or wine) because the brix is unchanging, but it's never been all that close for me. If yours are that close, then I agree that using a refractometer all the time makes sense for you.

I still have to use a hydrometer for beer, wine, mead, and cider if I really want to know the FG.

 

[pabloj13]

I've never had one post-fermentation refractometer reading match my hydrometer reading, even with the calculations.

I know the beer is done (or wine) because the brix is unchanging, but it's never been all that close for me. If yours are that close, then I agree that using a refractometer all the time makes sense for you.

I still have to use a hydrometer for beer, wine, mead, and cider if I really want to know the FG.

Yeah I've seen you post that before and wondered about that. Which refractometer do you have? Do you use natural light to read it? I have noticed a definite difference in indoor lighting. But like you said, a good way to use it is to monitor whether fermentation is still going or not. Then once it has stopped, you can always take a hydrometer reading if you want.

 

[ajf]

None of this is true. You can check FG with a refractometer if you use the correction spreadsheets/formulas

I beg to differ.
When I bought my refractometer about 5 years ago, I tried several available spreadsheets/formulas to estimate my FG from a Brix reading. Comparing the converted Brix readings against calibrated hydrometer readings gave a difference of up to 6 points!
I bought a finishing hydrometer which measured from 0.990 to 1.020, calibrated it and used that to measure the FG.
Then Sean Terrill came out with another calculator. I was so used to using the finishing hydrometer to measure the FG, I ignored it until a few weeks ago.
I brewed an ESB which had a FG of 1.01150 (measured with the hydrometer).
Using Promash to estimate the FG from a refractometer reading, I got 1.014
Using the Sean Terill calculator, I got 1.016

-a.

 

[pabloj13]

I beg to differ.
When I bought my refractometer about 5 years ago, I tried several available spreadsheets/formulas to estimate my FG from a Brix reading. Comparing the converted Brix readings against calibrated hydrometer readings gave a difference of up to 6 points!
I bought a finishing hydrometer which measured from 0.990 to 1.020, calibrated it and used that to measure the FG.
Then Sean Terrill came out with another calculator. I was so used to using the finishing hydrometer to measure the FG, I ignored it until a few weeks ago.
I brewed an ESB which had a FG of 1.01150 (measured with the hydrometer).
Using Promash to estimate the FG from a refractometer reading, I got 1.014
Using the Sean Terill calculator, I got 1.016

-a.

Maybe you just need to be a scientist? I have no problems with it.

 

[VigII]

To clarify a few questions. . .

* Yes, I did use a hydrometer. It is a triple scale with a 60*F scale.

* I have an AO Scientific model 10440 refractometer, arbitrary scale (0-30%). My brother has an AO Sci model 10430** (**edited re: post#25), 0-30 Brix. the 10340 was zeroed w/distilled H2O. The AO Sci 10340 was used to determine the 2 Brix on the steeping tea. It agreed closely with the hydrometer reading on the boiled wort. Good comparison .pdf on refractometers

* I have not yet verified the calibration. I just got a scale and will make up known aqueous sucrose solutions which I will use for a calibration curve. Both refractometers and the hydrometer will be calibrated on the same solutions.

* The temperature corrected FG, 1.0197, was determined with the hydrometer and corrected on an FG calculator incorporating measured temperature. The uncorrected hydrometer reading was 1.018 @ 75*.

^* I also checked it with my AO Sci 10440 @ 5.9%. What I've read states the Brix is +1 linear to the Arbitrary scale, so it should be ~6.9 but I didn't bother with converting since it's an unknown.​

* The fermenter should be temperature equilibrated. I had the airlock out and sampled for the hydrometer reading thru the grommet opening with a small Tygon tube attached to a 60CC syringe common to meat basting applications, so it should be pressure equilibrated too. Airlock activity is still going after I sampled.​

Seven days ago the AQ Sci 10440 gave me a natural light reading of 5.9%. I got the exact same reading on today's hydrometer sample.

I did swirl the bucket. If in three to four days the hydrometer and the refractometer readings remain unchanged, how long should I wait for the Witbread 1099 to settle before I bottle?

Again - A BIG Thank You to everyone for the helpful and educational discussion.

 

[66Mustang]

"My brother has an AO Sci model 10340, 0-30 Brix. "
Hi big brother! - the refractometer is actually a AO 10430. Also, earlier some folks mentioned bubbling due to temp change - I experienced this two weeks ago. I had primary fermented my vanilla cream ale for 3 weeks at 64ºF. Brought it upstairs and let it sit overnight in preparation for bottling the next day. When I was ready to bottle, I cracked the lid on the bucket, which was now at ~68ºF per the bucket's strip thermometer, and noticed some small bubbles coming to the top. The final gravity was ~ 1.015, (measured using the 10430), which is about right per the recipe, and the recipe has lactose in it. That was two weeks ago and the primed bottles have been conditioning at room temp for 2 weeks, and no 'splosions so far. Last week, at 1 week post-bottling, I chilled a 6 pack down and I had a couple and shared the rest with neighbors. Tasted fine, and no beer fountains occurred, when opening the bottles. Just a normal little puff when I pried off the bottle cap... all was well.

 

[unionrdr]

Leave the beer in primary till it settles out clear or slightly misty. typically 3-7 days after Fg is reached from my observations when I was watching for this over several batches. And additives like lactose (milk sugar) can artificially raise the FG a lil bit,since it doesn't ferment out.

 

[VigII]

Time to wrap this thread up. After I swirled the bucket, the yeast reactivated. Temperature was in the low 70's. Yeast activity continued for another 2 weeks. Yeast activity continued even when I moved it to the high 60's after the additional 2 weeks, the FG went to 1.008. It was in primary for 6 weeks total and then bottled. After 2 weeks in the bottle, the yeast flavors were quite strong. After 5 weeks in the bottle, it has mellowed but it's not what I was expecting. The coffee is prominent and missing some balance from the sweetness that it should have exhibited at 1.015. As the weeks pass, the flavors are mellowing together - or I'm adjusting to it. My cellar will hold it in the high 60's/low 70s for the next few month as I work my way through it. All in all, it's got a nice color and holds a good nearly-white head. I'll try this recipe again but the next time the Whitbread yeast will get roused on day 3 or 4 to keep it going toward 1.015 FG.