Boil in basement: bad idea?

[nbspindel]

You see the question. The details are:

-i'm brewing, or will be brewing in the near future, in a keggle, 10 gal batches.
-using a turkey fryer, no high pressure propane, just bottled propane.
-7ft ceilings, but very open (about 15ft wide, 50 ft long) basement.

i only worry about 2 things. 1. the heat on the beams, 2. the CO2 buildup.

i figure i can install an aluminum vent hood wide enough to catch the rising warm CO2 and insulate between the vent and the beams.

does this sound unsafe? its difficult to transfer 10 gallons of wort from the porch into the basement in a keg alone, without killing myself. and it would be easiest to have the entire setup in one location, no setup and breakdown. Thanks for your help.

 

[rod]

i am far from an expert - but from all the reading i have done - unless you have an exhange of fresh air - propane burning inside= death from c02 poisoning

 

[mosquitocontrol]

Bad Idea. Hands Down. Think of the amount of time you will have the turkey fryer going in an enclosed space. A garage with the door open halfway would be as close as I'd be willing to play with my life.

 

[Reedwalker]

I'm by no means claiming this is safe for you but....

I have a 32 qt Turkey Fryer, I do 5 gal boils in the basement. Sometimes I put a fan in, sometimes I don't. I've done this at least 5 times with no apparent ill effects. There have been no complaints of headaches or any other symptoms of CO or CO2 poisoning. My CO or CO2 alarms have never went off.

 

[Orangevango]

CO poisoning is like wu tang clan...

It aint nothing to **** with.

 

[sea2summit3]

does this sound unsafe? its difficult to transfer 10 gallons of wort from the porch into the basement in a keg alone, without killing myself. and it would be easiest to have the entire setup in one location, no setup and breakdown. Thanks for your help.

I don't think there would be a huge concern with your rafters unless something went wrong. However, without adequate (and I would say active) ventilation, it sounds unsafe. CO2 is heavier than air, and in the absence of a draft in your basement, it will pool. The turkey fryer will probably also be putting out CO. I'd look carefully into a ventilation system that was properly engineered to the turkey fryer if I were to brew in an enclosed area. If its worth the cost of doing this, go for it. Don't take the chance on your safety though!

 

[beerthirty]

If you want to install two active duct systems its doable. You would need one for the CO and CO2 emmisions close to the burner and another to vent the gallons of moisture from the boil. The moisture would be as bad on the rafters and insulation as the CO would be on you.

 

[sea2summit3]

I'm by no means claiming this is safe for you but....

I have a 32 qt Turkey Fryer, I do 5 gal boils in the basement. Sometimes I put a fan in, sometimes I don't. I've done this at least 5 times with no apparent ill effects. There have been no complaints of headaches or any other symptoms of CO or CO2 poisoning. My CO or CO2 alarms have never went off.

CO2 is considered dangerous at 5% by volume. I've been trained to test and monitor various poisonous gasses in my previous job and was amazed how easily it can reach above those volumes. High levels of either CO or CO2 can be fatal within minutes... I have seen it happen, and depending on where your detectors are placed, they might not pick it up in time. And generally anything that negatively affects the brain can cause lethargy and confusion, making symptoms more difficult to recognize. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but please think very carefully about what you're doing! You might be fine brewing a hundred batches like you've done, but all it takes is one variable to change. Manufactures warning labels are not lying! Cheers!

 

[bronzdragon]

I wouldn't do it unless you had a restaurant quality ventilation hood installed. Otherwise, I'll just repeat what's said above.

~r~

 

[nbspindel]

fully understood and appreciated. rather live to brew another day, right? maybe i'll see about a longer hose to pump wort from keggle on porch through the wall to the CWC in basement (about 10 ft maybe) and straight into the primary. that might just leave a bit of beer in the line to be discarded.

 

[petep1980]

I think you also run the risk of explosion if you don't get a quick light.

You could prob get a cheap range on craigslist if you're looking into basement brewing.

 

[barely]

First: It is good to have concerns. It is the person who doesn't ask who will die of CO poisoning. Knowing that what you're about to do can have
Second: Please get two (yes two!) CO detectors of different makes and models. If this sounds excessive, please reconsider. (If this sounds too harsh, please understand that I'm also responding to those who will find this thread in a year or two.)
Third: Be totally and completely willing to snuff the flame and vacate if a CO detector indicates a high CO level.
Fourth: CO2 is not the big issue - it's CO... Carbon-monoxide (CO).

I'm not saying that what you're contemplating is totally wrong - not at all. It's just that extreme care must be taken so that you will be here to brew another brew...and always make sure your CO detectors (plural) are in working order before brewing inside!

 

[Scut_Monkey]

I would stick to brewing in a well ventilated area. Like others have said this dosen't mean a big area but an area with fresh air coming in and likewise "old" air going out. Trust me if I could brew in the basement I would. I'm stuck outside in the winter with the garage door open. Many others don't have the luxury of a garage and go to town out in the yard. So I guess I'm lucky.

 

[Reedwalker]

I brew in the basement with a turkey fryer. I do use the CO detector (good idea for a second on, I will invest in one). I use fans to circulate the air and am able to open two windows so I get some cross ventilation going. My ceilings are 8'. Never noticed any condensation or extra moisture. I do have a dehumidifier going at all times down there.

All in all it can be safe. You need to be very aware of the dangers.

 

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Re: Reedwalker's sig: you forgot don't bite your fingernails!

On topic: Definitely take precautions if you decide to do this. Hoods, vents, multiple CO detectors as all have said. Better to err on the side of caution in this situation.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Why not go all electric and solve your problem? I already looked into it and one of my closest friends own a HVAC co. The cost and volume needed made an all electric system affordable. The volume needed is way more than a fan. It has to be a concentrated pull, I just decided brewing outside suits me fine.

 

[JKoravos]

If you want to install two active duct systems its doable. You would need one for the CO and CO2 emmisions close to the burner and another to vent the gallons of moisture from the boil. The moisture would be as bad on the rafters and insulation as the CO would be on you.

+1


To make a truly safe indoor propane brewing system is not exactly easy. If it were me, I'd do as above. It would be a fully enclosed duct system for the burner and a hood exhaust for the boil.

I just started brewing in my basement. I moved from propane to electric. Cost-wise, to do it safely, it's probably about the same. But either way you should plan to spend a few hundred bucks to do it right.

 

[Homercidal]

As mentioned before, the CO2 emmission is not the concern. The concern is CO, or lack of Oxygen. The Waste product of the burning flame replaces the oxygen that is being used to heat the kettle.

You might be fine with a room as large as yours, especially with a few open windows, or at least some way to exchange air from outside.

However, I could not tell you if it's safe or not. You may have to perform a test yourself to find out.

Also realize that boiling that much liquid for that long will release PLENTY of steam. Done often enough could be attracting mold growth. Occasionally, probably not.

 

[kkocher13]

I have a question about this whole thread. How is this any different than a gas stove run off of propane. I have one of these in my home. We don't have access to natural gas (Wish we did, its dirt cheap in the northeast). I have never had a problem with Carbon monoxide. I don't have a a vent on the stove or oven for that matter which also runs on propane. Also I've seen unvented wall heaters in homes as well. Am I slowly poisoning myself with CO everytime I make an omelet?????

 

[DRoyLenz]

I'm thinking if you're willing to go through the trouble to install a ventilation hood and other precautions, it might be worth it for you to install a natural gas/propane range down there, maybe one with large spider burners or something so you can get a good rolling boil on 10 gallons.

I'm no expert, and I have no means to price out the options, but it seems that the amount of investment it would take to make a turkey fryer safe, you might as well set something up that you can use for other purposes (cooking, grilling, etc...)

 

[Homercidal]

I have a question about this whole thread. How is this any different than a gas stove run off of propane. I have one of these in my home. We don't have access to natural gas (Wish we did, its dirt cheap in the northeast). I have never had a problem with Carbon monoxide. I don't have a a vent on the stove or oven for that matter which also runs on propane. Also I've seen unvented wall heaters in homes as well. Am I slowly poisoning myself with CO everytime I make an omelet?????

It's all about proportion. Consider the BTUs required to cook a meal, compared to boiling 5 gallons for an hour (plus strike and sparge water for AG brewers).

I don't know how many BTUs would be considered dangerous for cubic foot of air, but there has to be a certain ratio that would be considered dangerous.

 

[the_bird]

Turkey fryers aren't exactly the most efficient burners of propane. It's the incomplete combustion that causes the CO risk.

 

[conpewter]

When I moved to brewing in the basement I switched to electric. I find it much safer and easier to use indoors. Also I didn't want them to find a natural gas brewing setup in the basement if there is ever a fire in the house, I know they'd argue against paying out on insurance. The electric rig is grounded and GFCI protected.

 

[Catt22]

I'm thinking if you're willing to go through the trouble to install a ventilation hood and other precautions, it might be worth it for you to install a natural gas/propane range down there, maybe one with large spider burners or something so you can get a good rolling boil on 10 gallons.

I can't see how this would be any safer than a stand alone burner. They both are burning gas, either NG or propane. Natural gas is just as hazardous as propane when not properly vented. It wouldl be wise to provide ventilation and install a CO detector with any type of gas fired appliance. Using and storing propane tanks in a dwelling is both dangerous and illegal. Never leave any gas burner unattended. That would certainly be inviting disaster.

 

[Homercidal]

Bottom line for me is that I won't do this. NO matter that my basement is a wet, nasty, moldy spider-infested horror house. Even if I had a large, finished basement with concrete or ceramic tile floor, I'd still only use propane burner outside.

IF you could wire 220V down there, I'd recommend only using Electric Heat for brewing. The risk of something getting knocked over, or suffocating, or whatever, is too high for me.

Electric is a bit more money to start with, but many people use it very effectively, and more efficiently from what I've heard. No open flame, and no combustion.

 

[Surly]

Think about insurance companies.

They make one hundred percent profit when they do not pay claims.

Same if they can deny a claim and get away with it.

How many people here would think an insurance company is not going to deny a damage claim if they have a fairly good reason to deny? And, what judge and jury would think a 50,000 BTU open flame is a fine idea for a basement?

We brewers can argue all we want about this, but in the end, it is not real. What is real is the insurance company, judges and juries.

 

[beerocd]

Unless the propane burner CAUSED the incident they can't do anything about you STORING your burner downstairs. Not that I'm for using propane in an enclosed space, just saying the argument isn't quite right.
Unless you have an active air exchange system I would recommend electric as have many others. Or stay outside and run a pipe or tube to move your wort into the basement without killing your back.

-OCD

 

[Catt22]

Unless the propane burner CAUSED the incident they can't do anything about you STORING your burner downstairs. Not that I'm for using propane in an enclosed space, just saying the argument isn't quite right.
Unless you have an active air exchange system I would recommend electric as have many others. Or stay outside and run a pipe or tube to move your wort into the basement without killing your back.-OCD

It is a violation of the national fire code to store a propane cylinder larger than 1 lb in a dwelling and the maximum number of 1 lb cylinders permitted in a dwelling is two. Basements and attached garages are considered to be a part of the dwelling. The bottom line is that, yes, they can do something about it if you are caught. You could be cited or fined. This would be very unlikely, of course, unless there was a fire or accident directly related to illegal use or storage of a propane cylinder with a capacity greater than 1 lb. The storage and use regulation applies to both full and empty tanks. Many communities have even more restrictive regulations regarding the storage and use of propane tanks. Some even go so far as to require a permit for the propane tanks. Yeah, you probably won't be arrested or fined for illegal storage of a propane tank, but you might be prosecuted if it caused a fire and it could get really messy if someone were killed.

 

[beerocd]

It is a violation of the national fire code to store a propane cylinder larger than 1 lb in a dwelling and the maximum number of 1 lb cylinders permitted in a dwelling is two. Basements and attached garages are considered to be a part of the dwelling.

OK you REALLY got me on the garage part. I have MANY spares, where the heck are you supposed to keep em?

I'd say we've got a lot of outlaw brewers on this board. Honestly I can't find LAWS - just suggestions. Help out with a link?

-OCD

 

[Surly]

It is a violation of the national fire code to store a propane cylinder larger than 1 lb in a dwelling and the maximum number of 1 lb cylinders permitted in a dwelling is two. Basements and attached garages are considered to be a part of the dwelling. The bottom line is that, yes, they can do something about it if you are caught. You could be cited or fined. This would be very unlikely, of course, unless there was a fire or accident directly related to illegal use or storage of a propane cylinder with a capacity greater than 1 lb. The storage and use regulation applies to both full and empty tanks. Many communities have even more restrictive regulations regarding the storage and use of propane tanks. Some even go so far as to require a permit for the propane tanks. Yeah, you probably won't be arrested or fined for illegal storage of a propane tank, but you might be prosecuted if it caused a fire and it could get really messy if someone were killed.

The insurance companies will use this to avoid paying a claim. IMHO we place the economic future of our families in jeopardy when we burn 50K burners in our homes.

Go electric, or burn outdoors or in an outbuilding. I personally do not think it is worth the gamble.