body and carbing issues

[jack13]

I'm pretty new to homebrewing--done 20 brews so far (all all-grain and bottled in 12oz bottles). One fairly consistent issue I have faced is a lack of carbonation (in about 5 of the 20). The problem brews TEND to be higher ABV. Also, there is a tendency, again more so for the higher ABVs, for my beers to lack body.

I was thinking maybe the two issues are related--specifically, that there is too much attenuation of the yeast leading to A) a lower final gravity (which I have also measured, e.g., last beer's OG was spot on but finished at 1.010 rather than the hoped-for 1.014), and B) not enough yeast left in suspension to carb the beer properly.

I've got a bunch of other questions that follow if this a plausible explanation, but before getting to that, I'll just ask: IS this a plausible explanation?

Here are some details about the last brew I mentioned above, and in parentheses about my process in general:

American Amber Ale
-All grain
-batch sparged
-overall efficiency about 62% on this brew (going to try fly sparging for first time this weekend to hopefully bring that up)
-fermented at 72F for 3 weeks
-combination of harvested WL Calif and harvested WF Calif V (but usually use Calif only, sometimes harvested, sometimes from vial > starter)
-target abv = 6.5%, actual = 7.5%

 

[Brewmasher]

Not plausible. 1.010 is not all that dry. 1.002- 1.00- thats' dry.

It would take months in a secondary fermenter at low temps to floc out so much yeast that it won't carbonate. I have not used those yeasts, but the specs say they are highly resistant to alcohol, so that is not likely the problem. That is unless your harvested yeast has already taken a beating.

Higher alcohol beer typically takes longer to carbonate. What is your oldest flat beer?

Are you batch priming? What are you using? What temp are you conditioning?

 

[jack13]

Not plausible. 1.010 is not all that dry. 1.002- 1.00- thats' dry.

It would take months in a secondary fermenter at low temps to floc out so much yeast that it won't carbonate. I have not used those yeasts, but the specs say they are highly resistant to alcohol, so that is not likely the problem. That is unless your harvested yeast has already taken a beating.

Higher alcohol beer typically takes longer to carbonate. What is your oldest flat beer?

Are you batch priming? What are you using? What temp are you conditioning?

Here are 3 that are pretty flat:

7.1% ABV stout, bottled Feb 25, this year
5.5% ABV red ale, bottled mid april of this year
8.8% ABV stout, bottled May 30, this year

In all cases, I mix corn sugar (mixed with water, boiled) into the bottling bucket. Amount of corn sugar is based on Northern Brewer's priming sugar calculator. Though at some point I started adding 10% or so to that.

I condition at around 73-75F

Did a little experimenting about awhile back based on some things I had read here. I shook one, turned one upside-down, shook AND turned one upside down, and left one alone. There was no difference among them. I also added varying amounts of dry yeast (US-04) to a few (the second and third on my list above). That didn't do anything, either (but could be that it was a little old and/or the alcohol level was too high--I'm planning on trying again with some fresh wine yeast or something).

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Did you forget to add the sugar before bottling

I've seen it before...

 

[jack13]

Did you forget to add the sugar before bottling

I've seen it before...

Ha-good question!

By some miracle I've managed to not forget that yet. I have forgotten to stir the bottling bucket a couple times, but that doesn't seem to correlate with carbing problems. I guess the sugar gets moved around enough as the bottling bucket fills. Even so, I now always put a post-it note on the bottling bucket to remind me.

 

[Brewmasher]

Not stirring, or allowing the sugar to fully incorporate into the wort sometimes produces a batch where some bottles are under carbed, some over carbed. Is the whole batch flat or just certain bottles?

Is it completely flat, or just under carbed? Are you measuring the sugar by weight or volume?

Your procedure is sound. The fact that you added fresh yeast and nothing happened leads me to think the sugar is off. Try getting some carbonation tabs, drop a few in a bottle and see what happens.

 

[jack13]

Not stirring, or allowing the sugar to fully incorporate into the wort sometimes produces a batch where some bottles are under carbed, some over carbed. Is the whole batch flat or just certain bottles?

Is it completely flat, or just under carbed? Are you measuring the sugar by weight or volume?

Your procedure is sound. The fact that you added fresh yeast and nothing happened leads me to think the sugar is off. Try getting some carbonation tabs, drop a few in a bottle and see what happens.

One is totally flat. The others are undercarbed (a LITTLE head when first poured, then quickly goes away).

I measure by volume. Actually, I'm bottling later today. N. Brewer called for 0.55 cups. I dissolved about .67 cups in about 1.5 cups water.

Do you think I'd have better luck with champagne yeast? Some here say they add a packet of that to the bottling bucket (I assume a 5 gallon batch) for high gravity beers. That sounds like a lot, though, especially since others have said to add "just a grain or two" of dry yeast to each bottle.

Also, I do usually remember to stir, but what you do mean by 'allowing the sugar to fully incorporate into the wort'? Should I leave it in there for awhile before beginning to bottle?

 

[ncbrewer]

Once you figure this out, you'll still have some flat beer. One thing you could do to get drinkable beer from the flat batches is to mix a bottle of the flat beer with a bottle of BMC. Better than dumping it.

 

[Brew_G]

I wonder if it's an issue with your capper or the kinds of bottles you're using. Basically, I'm thinking it might be an issue of losing carbonation because the caps aren't on quite tight enough.

 

[Brewmasher]

I wonder if it's an issue with your capper or the kinds of bottles you're using. Basically, I'm thinking it might be an issue of losing carbonation because the caps aren't on quite tight enough.

Didn't think of this possibility, especially if you are using reused commercial bottles. Twist off bottles won't work. You might have gotten the wrong size caps by accident, or your capper is adjusted for the wrong size. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=363698&page=2
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=149768&page=3

You could try shaking a few up and putting them in a sink full of warm soapy water and see if you get bubbles.

Also, are you leaving enough head space in the bottle?

Do you think I'd have better luck with champagne yeast? Some here say they add a packet of that to the bottling bucket (I assume a 5 gallon batch) for high gravity beers. That sounds like a lot, though, especially since others have said to add "just a grain or two" of dry yeast to each bottle.

I really don't think the yeast is the issue. I never had to re-yeast even on beers that were 10- 12%.

Also, I do usually remember to stir, but what you do mean by 'allowing the sugar to fully incorporate into the wort'? Should I leave it in there for awhile before beginning to bottle?

Not if you stir. Some brewers don't stir in fear of oxygenation. In that case, you would let it sit for awhile to let the sugar mix in evenly.

Measuring by weight is more accurate. By volume will get you pretty close. From what you describe, I don't think that's the problem.

 

[jack13]

Didn't think of this possibility, especially if you are using reused commercial bottles. Twist off bottles won't work. You might have gotten the wrong size caps by accident, or your capper is adjusted for the wrong size. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=363698&page=2
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=149768&page=3

You could try shaking a few up and putting them in a sink full of warm soapy water and see if you get bubbles.



Also, are you leaving enough head space in the bottle?





I really don't think the yeast is the issue. I never had to re-yeast even on beers that were 10- 12%.



Not if you stir. Some brewers don't stir in fear of oxygenation. In that case, you would let it sit for awhile to let the sugar mix in evenly.

Measuring by weight is more accurate. By volume will get you pretty close. From what you describe, I don't think that's the problem.

Damn! Nothing on the soapy sink test. I shook a bottle and stuck underwater, but no bubbles. I got excited about this one, because it made me remember that some of my caps were a little bit rusted (I assume from being put in sanitizer, then not being needed and saved for later--I've since adjusted to avoid this). But the bottle I tried even had some visible rust on the edges, but it seems airtight.

Regarding leaving enough head space: I'm following the instructions from the bottle filler--to fill to top, so when you remove it, it leaves the correct amount of space. It is also consistent with commercial beers.

And I definitely don't have any screw-top bottles, and my capper isn't adjustable...but it's the capper I always use, and most of my brews carb fine.

Which makes me ask: Should I be happy that most of my brews carb fine? Anyone else have periodic, but relatively rare, problems like this that they've never solved?

 

[Brewmasher]

Sure you should be happy. You'd be happier when you solve your dilemma I bet. 1 or 2 beers out of a 5 gallon batch would not be much of a deal, I would just use those for cooking and be happy.

After 10+ years of brewing I have yet to experience a bottle bomb, or an unexplained undercarbed beer, although a portion of those years I kegged. I follow pretty much the same procedure. All my beers are 6-10% ABV, with occasional 12% batches.

There should be plenty of yeast left in suspension, and the strain you are using should be able to handle the alcohol, unless perhaps your readings are off and you have rocket fuel. I know there are recommendations to add more yeast at bottling for higher gravity beers, but this stems from commercial breweries where the yeast is under a lot of pressure and has been used over and over, so they add the yeast as insurance that it carbonates in a timely manner. I never had to add yeast, even with 12% brews.

If you are like me you wouldn't want to waste all that effort and turn those bottles into sparkling nectar of the Gods. I would drop a few carbonation tabs, and maybe a few drops of White Labs High Gravity yeast in each bottle, and cap them with some new caps. If that doesn't do the trick, the Beer Gods must have cursed them to be used as cooking liquid.

 

[SteveHeff]

A couple years ago, I purchased decorative bottle caps. They absolutely do not work as regular bottle caps as they are missing a vital liner that is responsible for actually sealing the bottle. I had an entire batch that didn't carb up. After realizing my issue, I was able to remedy it and I haven't had a problem since. Where are you buying your caps?

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure how much .65 "cups" or whatever is. The first thing I'd recommend is a small kitchen scale, and measure your priming sugar strictly by weight. A good rule of thumb is .75- 1 ounce of priming sugar per finished gallon of beer.

I never stir my beer and priming solution together. I put the priming solution in the bottling bucket, and then rack the beer into it, by putting the tubing in a "c" around the bottom of the bottling bucket so that the beer fills the bucket from the bottom in a swirl but without splashing.

I would skip the "priming calculators" because they aren't working for you at this point. I hate them as they often give ridiculous amounts of priming sugar based on "style" and temperature. Since they would have you prime some English styles to 1.3 volumes (totally flat) and some Weizen styles to 4+ volumes (bottle bombs), I'd skip them until you had a consistent result on a more general amount like .75 ounces per gallons.

 

[jack13]

I'm not sure how much .65 "cups" or whatever is. The first thing I'd recommend is a small kitchen scale, and measure your priming sugar strictly by weight. A good rule of thumb is .75- 1 ounce of priming sugar per finished gallon of beer.

I never stir my beer and priming solution together. I put the priming solution in the bottling bucket, and then rack the beer into it, by putting the tubing in a "c" around the bottom of the bottling bucket so that the beer fills the bucket from the bottom in a swirl but without splashing.

I would skip the "priming calculators" because they aren't working for you at this point. I hate them as they often give ridiculous amounts of priming sugar based on "style" and temperature. Since they would have you prime some English styles to 1.3 volumes (totally flat) and some Weizen styles to 4+ volumes (bottle bombs), I'd skip them until you had a consistent result on a more general amount like .75 ounces per gallons.

I'll give that a shot.

And I rack into the priming solution the same way you describe. That's probably why it works out fine even when I forget to stir. Given that, and the experience you've had, perhaps I'll just skip the stirring...even though I'm careful to sanitize the spoon and stir without splashing, better to not even chance contamination/oxidation if stirring isn't accomplishing anything.

In addition to the suggestions I've received, I have decided to also genuflect when I finish bottling from now on.

Thanks, all!

 

[Brew_G]

I second Yooper's suggestion on getting a scale. I generally shoot for about 2.4 vols per BrewUnited's calculator, but I find that my carbonation is slightly higher than I expected, so I adjust the downward (i.e. reduce the sugar amount) by about 0.2 vols.

I also don't stir, and do just as Yooper mentioned. The swirling action of the beer going into the hitting bucket is enough to get the solution evenly mixed...or evenly enough that I can't tell the difference from one bottle to the next.

I like to keep things as simple as possible, and over the last year or so I've really dialed in a reliable, efficient process that gets me the results I want...all in time for my upcoming kegerator build! [emoji1]

 

[Brewmasher]

Wally World has digital scales for around $10

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I wonder if it's an issue with your capper or the kinds of bottles you're using. Basically, I'm thinking it might be an issue of losing carbonation because the caps aren't on quite tight enough.

Dollars to donuts that this is Jack's issue and he is using flip tops. I loved the look and cool factor of my flip tops so much that I tried to ignore that they were the problem for three batches. Now I'm on a crusade to let everyone else know they leak. The only way you can trust your flip tops is if you use new gaskets every batch and even then...

 

[Brewmasher]

Nope. He said they were rusted from soaking in sanitizer the previous batch. Good chance it's the rusted caps though.

Damn! Nothing on the soapy sink test. I shook a bottle and stuck underwater, but no bubbles. I got excited about this one, because it made me remember that some of my caps were a little bit rusted (I assume from being put in sanitizer, then not being needed and saved for later--I've since adjusted to avoid this). But the bottle I tried even had some visible rust on the edges, but it seems airtight

 

[jack13]

Nope. He said they were rusted from soaking in sanitizer the previous batch. Good chance it's the rusted caps though.

I really do wish that was it since that would be so easy to solve. But that doesn't appear to be the case. Some were rusted (but just a tiny bit), most were not at all rusted, and worse is the fact that there doesn't seem to be any association between the rust and the carbing problems.

 

[jack13]

Wally World has digital scales for around $10

My wife has a scale for weighing yarn (which tells you the length of the yarn--cool!), and I've used that a couple times. But damned if I did not start noting the priming specs in my brew log until a couple brews back, so I can't discern when I went by weight and when by volume.

But moving forward I will go by weight as per suggestions here. Makes sense that would be more accurate but I had never thought about it!

 

[Brew_G]

My wife has a scale for weighing yarn (which tells you the length of the yarn--cool!), and I've used that a couple times. But damned if I did not start noting the priming specs in my brew log until a couple brews back, so I can't discern when I went by weight and when by volume.



But moving forward I will go by weight as per suggestions here. Makes sense that would be more accurate but I had never thought about it!

Good idea on measuring by weight.

This is what I use for priming sugar and hops:

American Weigh Scales ACP-200 Digital Pocket Scale, 200 by 0.01 G
(https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003STEIYY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

Great little scale.

 

[ncbrewer]

Damn! Nothing on the soapy sink test. I shook a bottle and stuck underwater, but no bubbles. I got excited about this one, because it made me remember that some of my caps were a little bit rusted (I assume from being put in sanitizer, then not being needed and saved for later--I've since adjusted to avoid this). But the bottle I tried even had some visible rust on the edges, but it seems airtight.

It could be a really slow leak. I started having a problem with pretty much all bottles being flat. I tested for leaks by checking under water - couldn't see any bubbles. But I eventually found it was a capping problem. In my case, I was using a bench capper, and I was pressing down way too hard, and pressing twice (to make sure I didn't have any leakage). When I went back to normal capping, the flat beer problem went away.

 

[jack13]

UPDATE:

On July 5 I had added a little dry yeast into 3 bottles of two of the low-carbed batches: the irish red (I think 6% ABV or so) and the RIS (8.8%). I opened an irish red yesterday expecting no difference as was the case for the other two reds I had opened, but was surprised that it was carbonated. Nicely so.

Even though the cause of the carbing problems is still a mystery, I wanted to share that adding some yeast to the bottles and waiting about 3 weeks did the trick.

I didn't measure how much yeast I had put in but my best guess is 10 or so grains (S-04). In the future I'll hydrate or use harvested yeast and use a dropper--I was a bit lazy on that one.

Still no improvement on the RIS, but maybe that is simply taking longer because of the higher ABV (maybe?)