Bochet: A question about temperature not time.

[bernardsmith]

If I am caramelizing table sugar I know that the critical temperature seems to be 250F. But I also know that I can cook the sugar for a few minutes longer at this temperature to create slightly different flavors and colors. When it comes to caramelizing honey for a bochet no one seems to talk about the critical temperature and folk generally talk about cooking the honey for an hour or hours or until it changes to the brown color you want or until "black smoke" rises from the (burnt?) honey. My sense is that there may be two possible critical temperatures - one to caramelize the sucrose and one, the fructose. The first would caramelize at about 230 F and the second about 320 F. Why does no one highlight the best temperature for caramelizing honey? Anyone with professional cooking experience have an answer? Thanks

 

[JDWebb]

Like sugar, there are different levels of caramelization. I usually take mine to about 250º F for best results. At that point, I get a dark caramel flavor, something like a dark caramel See's candy, and a toasted marshmallow aroma. I think it's all up to the meadmaker. I have yet to "boil" honey to the point where it smokes, but it's on my to do list. I also do mine in a crockpot on high for better control. I have done it in a pressure cooker by filling quart mason jars with honey and processing at 12 lbs for about 30 minutes. It comes out almost black, bittersweet, and might be the same as boiling in a pot I think.

 

[bernardsmith]

Thanks JD. So 250 F will caramelize sucrose but leave the fructose unaffected. OK. That is the next experiment on my to do list (after making an orange blossom mead with orange zest; a caramel mead (using candy caramels; and a cyser from a apples pressed by local apple orchard (Northern Spy being the dominant apple in the blend - ph of 3.4 and SG of 1.050). So many projects ... so little time

 

[JDWebb]

When it comes to caramelization I think it's all up to the flavor you want to capture. My sense is, a dark, bittersweet caramelization might be good for a stout or porter-like mead, maybe with some dark grains, chocolate, maybe a little barley. A lighter caramelization would be good for a nice oaked mead, maybe dry-hopped with some spices, or even hops for that matter.

 

[bernardsmith]

No argument from me there but doesn't caramelization (the chemistry) depend on the temperature you bring the sugar up to? Color is an indication of caramelization but if folk don't monitor the temperature how do they know that they have hit a necessary temperature and how do they know when to stop the sugars cooking so that they don't in fact burn and turn to carbon (the black smoke: think burnt toast)
rather than caramelize?

 

[JimRausch]

JDWebb- the crockpot idea seems genius. How long does it take in a crockpot on high, and do you have to stir it? The idea of standing over a stove for 2 hours constantly stirring a pot of liquid blister-former has always sounded a little daunting to me.

 

[bernardsmith]

But when ucaramelize sugar you do not stir the sugar. You stir ONLY until the sugar is dissolved if you add water (and then you must allow ALL that water to evaporate to be able to hit the 250 F needed to caramelize the sucrose. (the presence of water keeps the temperature down to a maximum of about 212 F (the BP of water). Is honey different that you need to stir it? Why?

 

[JDWebb]

I judge the caramelization by the color. As the color changes, different levels of caramel flavor comes out. Nest time I do it, I'll track the temps every hour or half hour and log it. The crockpot can take hours depending on how much you're doing. Word of warning though, it will expand, so leave at least a half a pot free for expansion.

 

[bernardsmith]

I have made bochet before and have used my crock pot for this but I never measured the temperature- just measured the time. But that seems crazy. Or rather not crazy but incredibly haphazard. Mary makes her bochet in a pressure cooker and John makes his bochet on his stove top while you make your bochet in a crock pot and no one knows what the target temperature they need to hit is. If it is 230 F or 250 F or 320 F then all the guess work is taken out and no one needs to care HOW they hit that temperature (you could put the pot in your oven and wait until it reached that temperature and you would not need to watch it any more than you watch bread bake...) For some reason we act as if making bochet is something akin to a mystical process that requires a shaman to know exactly what is going on. Caramelization is a chemical procedure. It is subject to known laws and processes. The art is deciding how much caramelization you want for the mead you are making... but the science does not change.

 

[ShareBrewing]

Has anyone tried actually just sticking a metal deep frying thermometer in their caramelizing honey? Gonna try this on the next batch of mead, a s’mores bochet.

It’s surprising to see how little scientific data there when it comes to heating honey in general. The only info I can find about the process of heating honey is about “boiling honey to pasteurize”. Every article or professional source just comes down to “DONT DO IT! Overheating your honey beyond ~100F will drive off subtle flavors along with much of the natural enzymes and probiotics.” Or some similar version of that statement.

The only thing to do to start testing this is to drop a thermometer in that gurgling cauldron of honey.

 

[Metalchef1]

Sugar doesn't caramelize till between 320f and 340f...250f is hard ball stage..

 

[bernardsmith]

Sugar doesn't caramelize till between 320f and 340f...250f is hard ball stage..

You may be correct but the 230 F temperature I got from various sites on line that provide the caramelization temperature of sucrose, Fructose caramelizes at 320 F and from a youtube video (I know, I know) about making soft caramels where you monitor the temperature and cut the cooking at 250 F The sugar is heated with cream ) and allow the mix to cool and harden and you have chewy caramels...But the correct temperature seems to me to be less the point as no one seems to bother about temperature. They talk about time on the burner or stove - This is the color at 30 minutes and that the color at 45 minutes but we never hear what temperature the honey reaches - If I cook honey at 100 F will it take only 30 minutes to reach that brown color or will it take 2 weeks? And if I cook the honey at 500 F will it burn in 5 minutes or simply turn a shade darker.. Seems to me that either no one really understands what they are doing or they do but the key is to keep what they do a mystery...

 

[Metalchef1]

You may be correct but the 230 F temperature I got from various sites on line that provide the caramelization temperature of sucrose, Fructose caramelizes at 320 F and from a youtube video (I know, I know) about making soft caramels where you monitor the temperature and cut the cooking at 250 F The sugar is heated with cream ) and allow the mix to cool and harden and you have chewy caramels...But the correct temperature seems to me to be less the point as no one seems to bother about temperature. They talk about time on the burner or stove - This is the color at 30 minutes and that the color at 45 minutes but we never hear what temperature the honey reaches - If I cook honey at 100 F will it take only 30 minutes to reach that brown color or will it take 2 weeks? And if I cook the honey at 500 F will it burn in 5 minutes or simply turn a shade darker.. Seems to me that either no one really understands what they are doing or they do but the key is to keep what they do a mystery...

You have those switched.... Sucrose caramelizes at 320 fructose caramelizes at 230..
Fructose is the only "sugar" with a low temperature caramelization point.
Sucrose, glucose and galactose all caramelize at 320.
When you add dairy products to the mixture everything changes... The proteins in the dairy will "caramelize" at much lower temperatures....

Pastry Chef here for almost 20 years... I use a thermometer...

Honey is about 50% fructose.. Which has the lower caramelization point.... That's where the issue comes in.

Another issue is that when you cook honey the first thing that occurs is you burn impurities before caramelization occurs (same for regular sugar....).
You can produce toasted flavors before the Millard reaction occurs.

I'm currently conducting various sugar experiments related to using an induction burner with precise temperature control to see more accurately about caramelization and crystallization in the solutions...
I haven't yet but part of this is to be able to better control the honey for making a bochet.

When you read various blogs and experiments on sugar about making candy syrup they say to use dap... Citric acid.. Etc.. To invert the sugar so it wont recrystallize after the solution is made.... Hearing that I knew it was completly unnecessary.... What is happening is as soon as the sugar darkens people stop cooking it so it won't burn (carry over cooking is huge here because of a tight waterless thermal mass)... When you do that.... A good chunk of the sugar is not caramelized. The part that has caramelized has died the color of the solution that has not and what has not will seed the mixture and cause recrystalization.

I cannot recommend induction enough for sugar work... It is always easier to have precision control and for home equipment amazon..... Nuwave platinum has 5 degree increments for temperature control (the one that will do specific temps is around 2k....not bad cause they were 8k a few years ago).

Honey is fickle because it has the ability to caramelize at low temperatures but also because it's "dirty"... With the induction I would set the temp for about 215 and slowly cook it until it seems to be right.. And with sugar visual is not the key. Any good chef will tell you "the nose knows". There is a distinct difference between caramelized sugar and burnt sugar.

Feel free to keep in touch with me and I will be happy to keep you updated on my sugar experiments. I plan on putting it all together and giving my research to James Spencer at bbr so you never know... Maybe he will have an episode with me some day.

It's not about being a mystery... Remember the nose knows and it's just about getting used to the medium... When I finished culinary school my sugar work was far from spectacular... Practice makes a difference.

You can do micro batches of bochet and see what you get and what you like..
Use the stove and a pot and make some 1 gallon batches.... Cook one recipe of honey for 30 minutes... 40, etc. And see what you like.

Sorry for the long post and rambling I've been sampling too much homebrew today.

 

[bernardsmith]

Metalchef1, this is exactly what I was looking for THANK YOU.. and your post was far from rambling... and yes, I see I mis-cited my notes. Sucrose caramelizes at 320 and fructose at 230. And honey is approximately 38.2% fructose and 1.3% sucrose (with another 31.3% glucose).

So - the nose knows. No argument about that but does that mean that you want to get the temperature up to about 230 F or is it because of the "impurities" in the honey that it will in fact caramelize at 215 F?

If I know my electric oven is fairly accurate does it make any good sense for me to heat the oven to 215 F and simply add a large pot, quarter filled with honey and allow it to reach target temperature and cook for say, 15 minutes, check it and allow it to continue to cook another 15 and repeat until I am satisfied? (an oven because there will be no hot spots that you would have if I use a burner).

And should you stir honey when caramelizing it? You don't stir sugar, do you, unless you want it to crystalize? Is honey different ? Or is it stirred to avoid scorching on a hot spot?

 

[Metalchef1]

Metalchef1, this is exactly what I was looking for THANK YOU.. and your post was far from rambling... and yes, I see I mis-cited my notes. Sucrose caramelizes at 320 and fructose at 230. And honey is approximately 38.2% fructose and 1.3% sucrose (with another 31.3% glucose).

So - the nose knows. No argument about that but does that mean that you want to get the temperature up to about 230 F or is it because of the "impurities" in the honey that it will in fact caramelize at 215 F?

If I know my electric oven is fairly accurate does it make any good sense for me to heat the oven to 215 F and simply add a large pot, quarter filled with honey and allow it to reach target temperature and cook for say, 15 minutes, check it and allow it to continue to cook another 15 and repeat until I am satisfied? (an oven because there will be no hot spots that you would have if I use a burner).

And should you stir honey when caramelizing it? You don't stir sugar, do you, unless you want it to crystalize? Is honey different ? Or is it stirred to avoid scorching on a hot spot?

Ohhhh.... The oven is a great idea if it's accurate.... Even better and more gentle than induction... With induction it's heating from the bottom like fire but with an oven it's convection.....

Hate to say this but I can't answer that... I assume that you are not using the honey from the bees at the jewel Osco... It's too expensive and usually doesn't actually have much honey in it....
That being said... I don't know the first thing about the impurities in the clover honey I buy in bulk from webstaurant (yeah yeah... Clover makes bad mead and I'm cheap as hell)..
VS the Wildflower you are buying from homebrewheaven or stevesbrewingsupply...

I do think 215f is a bit low regardless..... Using the oven method I can't think of a slower way to do anything as you are not applying direct heat... I would say for an experiment set it to 225f if you can and check the smell every 15 minutes.... That's below the caramelization temperature of the fructose but you will be able to tell if the impurities begin to color the character beforehand... And I'm a moron for never having even thought of that.... I bought that nu wave just to do these damn experiments when I could have just used an oven so thanks for that.... But my induction burner does have a remote?..

Honey does have sucrose as part of the composition so I would not stir..... You can brush with water if necessary but at that low of a temperature and with no direct heat.... I'd assume it wouldn't be necessary to do anything??

Think about brewing.... Propane burner vs the garbage stove I brew on in my basement... Propane will get to a violent boil in quick order whereas my stove, while it does achieve a technical boil, barely has the surface bubbling while I'm brewing.. So the stove being so gentle I would suspect should not disturb the mixture enough to warrant washing the vessel while trying to cook the honey...

And I know I'm repeating a lot of what you said while asking me questions but I'm trying to sound smart because the idiot chef never gave a first thought to using the oven to caramelize the sugar....

 

[bernardsmith]

I tend to look for inexpensive solutions to problems and solutions that don't involve single use tools... As it happens I get most of my honey locally. I live Upstate NY and there are dozens of farms and beekeepers around here who sell their honey at the farmers' market and at the health food stores and other markets. Mostly wildflower and clover.. And in my opinion , both clover and wildflower make excellent vehicles for spiced or floral or fruit meads in ways that varietals want to play center stage and don't want fruit or spices to be taking the limelight from them. Also , I would think that a bochet is better served with a wildflower honey than with say raspberry or apple or tupelo or star-thistle. Caramelization destroys the obvious flavors and substitutes a more toffee flavor. But you can get much of that toffee flavor from table sugar why would you want to rip apart unique flavors that the varietals bring to the table?
OKAY - but you have given me the motivation to make a small batch of bochet as one of my next projects. Was going to make an hibiscus mead but now I think that this will be a bochet. I have 3 lbs of honey (Mesquite honey from Trader Joe's - but I don't view mesquite as a varietal in the same way I view say, heather honey or meadowfoam) ready for this project and the hibiscus and the hops I want to add.
Again, thank you. and good luck with your experiment. If you publish I really would love to read the report of your findings.

 

[Metalchef1]

I tend to look for inexpensive solutions to problems and solutions that don't involve single use tools... As it happens I get most of my honey locally. I live Upstate NY and there are dozens of farms and beekeepers around here who sell their honey at the farmers' market and at the health food stores and other markets. Mostly wildflower and clover.. And in my opinion , both clover and wildflower make excellent vehicles for spiced or floral or fruit meads in ways that varietals want to play center stage and don't want fruit or spices to be taking the limelight from them. Also , I would think that a bochet is better served with a wildflower honey than with say raspberry or apple or tupelo or star-thistle. Caramelization destroys the obvious flavors and substitutes a more toffee flavor. But you can get much of that toffee flavor from table sugar why would you want to rip apart unique flavors that the varietals bring to the table?
OKAY - but you have given me the motivation to make a small batch of bochet as one of my next projects. Was going to make an hibiscus mead but now I think that this will be a bochet. I have 3 lbs of honey (Mesquite honey from Trader Joe's - but I don't view mesquite as a varietal in the same way I view say, heather honey or meadowfoam) ready for this project and the hibiscus and the hops I want to add.
Again, thank you. and good luck with your experiment. If you publish I really would love to read the report of your findings.

Ohhhh... Hibiscus mead... Yum...

 

[Metalchef1]

Ohhhh... Hibiscus mead... Yum...

And that induction burner definitely won't be single use.... It's replacing the max Burton that I had for over a decade.. And I'm a gadget junky...

 

[bernardsmith]

.

And that induction burner definitely won't be single use.... It's replacing the max Burton that I had for over a decade.. And I'm a gadget junky...

I make cheese too and a device that would allow me far more heat control than my stove top offers would be great. An induction burner might do just that but don't you need specific pots to create the current? Can you use one with the kinds of kettles you use to brew with?

 

[Metalchef1]

.


I make cheese too and a device that would allow me far more heat control than my stove top offers would be great. An induction burner might do just that but don't you need specific pots to create the current? Can you use one with the kinds of kettles you use to brew with?

You just need any pots that are magnetic.... They say the pots have to be stamped that they are induction ready but that's bull.... If a magnet will stick to it, it will work. And in a pinch I have bought pots from Walmart for around 10 bucks that worked.

I do not know about the induction stove tops as no one would ever let me buy one... But as far as the portable burners go the cooking surface is usually around 12 inches?.. So a brew kettle would be way too large to fit on it... The largest you will be able to fit will be a pasta pot. That should be fine for cheese unless you are making giant batches of cheese (I usually only work with about a gallon of milk at a time).

 

[bernardsmith]

I also only use a gallon of milk at a time. Very occasionally I use two gallons but my large stock pot holds two gallons - and I can stick a magentized thermometer to it so that would work OK with an induction heater... I will check this out. Again, many thanks for your thoughts and your posts.

 

[Metalchef1]

I also only use a gallon of milk at a time. Very occasionally I use two gallons but my large stock pot holds two gallons - and I can stick a magentized thermometer to it so that would work OK with an induction heater... I will check this out. Again, many thanks for your thoughts and your posts.

Absolutely.. Hell you can probably buy an induction burner on Amazon and if you don't like it or it doesn't work for you I'm pretty sure you can just return it..

 

[ShareBrewing]

Sounds like there’s some small bochet experiments that need to happen. It’d be worth it to try doing 1 gal batches of this.

It might be a good idea just to try cooking a 1 lb batch of honey in oven first, without stirring, going with “the nose knows” rule. Before dedicating larger amounts of honey and a possibly larger mess in your oven. That said I’ll pick up an extra pound for testing purposes.

Trader Joe’s big 3lb cans of mesquite honey are probably gonna be my go-to as well. It’s got good flavor, but I agree, not as much as regular varietal honey. It can easily be used like any clover/wildflower.

It’d be best to try a side-by-side comparison of the two methods of heating the honey.

3lbs will be heated in the oven in a kettle while the other 3 lbs will be heated over an outdoor flame burner (using a thermometer to monitor temps).

The real question is: for sake of experimentation and keeping as many variables equal, wouldn’t you want to cook each batch of honey for the same amount of time (even if it isn’t the full 1.5hrs), same cooking vessel, etc. The only variables would be the temperature based on the different methods.

 

[Metalchef1]

Sounds like there’s some small bochet experiments that need to happen. It’d be worth it to try doing 1 gal batches of this.

It might be a good idea just to try cooking a 1 lb batch of honey in oven first, without stirring, going with “the nose knows” rule. Before dedicating larger amounts of honey and a possibly larger mess in your oven. That said I’ll pick up an extra pound for testing purposes.

Trader Joe’s big 3lb cans of mesquite honey are probably gonna be my go-to as well. It’s got good flavor, but I agree, not as much as regular varietal honey. It can easily be used like any clover/wildflower.

It’d be best to try a side-by-side comparison of the two methods of heating the honey.

3lbs will be heated in the oven in a kettle while the other 3 lbs will be heated over an outdoor flame burner (using a thermometer to monitor temps).

The real question is: for sake of experimentation and keeping as many variables equal, wouldn’t you want to cook each batch of honey for the same amount of time (even if it isn’t the full 1.5hrs), same cooking vessel, etc. The only variables would be the temperature based on the different methods.

I'm going to have to go with no on the time issue... I can get a pot of water to boil on the induction burner probably 5 times faster than on the gas burner.... Therefore I could burn it 5 times faster as well..

 

[Metalchef1]

I'm going to have to go with no on the time issue... I can get a pot of water to boil on the induction burner probably 5 times faster than on the gas burner.... Therefore I could burn it 5 times faster as well..

And yes... This is definitely a small batch experiment

 

[bernardsmith]

Sounds like there’s some small bochet experiments that need to happen. It’d be worth it to try doing 1 gal batches of this.

It might be a good idea just to try cooking a 1 lb batch of honey in oven first, without stirring, going with “the nose knows” rule. Before dedicating larger amounts of honey and a possibly larger mess in your oven. That said I’ll pick up an extra pound for testing purposes.

Trader Joe’s big 3lb cans of mesquite honey are probably gonna be my go-to as well. It’s got good flavor, but I agree, not as much as regular varietal honey. It can easily be used like any clover/wildflower.

It’d be best to try a side-by-side comparison of the two methods of heating the honey.

3lbs will be heated in the oven in a kettle while the other 3 lbs will be heated over an outdoor flame burner (using a thermometer to monitor temps).

The real question is: for sake of experimentation and keeping as many variables equal, wouldn’t you want to cook each batch of honey for the same amount of time (even if it isn’t the full 1.5hrs), same cooking vessel, etc. The only variables would be the temperature based on the different methods.

You raise some interesting thoughts but I also would nix the experiment you suggest.
1. using a flame burner means that you most definitely have hot spots so a) you scorch and burn the honey where the heat strikes the kettle - Yeah, yeah you can stir, but if you make cheese you use a double boiler to avoid scorching and you are stirring almost constantly as you "cook" the curds. and
2. You don't put anything into a cold oven and then heat the oven. I would heat the oven and the kettle and then add the honey. Over a flame (or element) you begin at room temperature and then heat the honey so it is going to take you however long it takes to reach the target temperature. A pre-heated oven and kettle are at the target temperature before you begin. So given these two characteristics the conditions are fundamentally different and when moe than one condition is different you are not "experimenting" , you are playing at experimentation.

and it may not be that one is better than the other but which one you prefer. (I am NOT a cook or a chef, but I make a great deal of my food from scratch - including vegetarian burgers. Most "recipes" call out the need to fry these burgers. Great. But I bake mine. But when you bake them you need to tweak the recipe because the "recipe" assumes the use of cooking in deep hot oil not baking in hot air.

 

[Metalchef1]

You raise some interesting thoughts but I also would nix the experiment you suggest.
1. using a flame burner means that you most definitely have hot spots so a) you scorch and burn the honey where the heat strikes the kettle - Yeah, yeah you can stir, but if you make cheese you use a double boiler to avoid scorching and you are stirring almost constantly as you "cook" the curds. and
2. You don't put anything into a cold oven and then heat the oven. I would heat the oven and the kettle and then add the honey. Over a flame (or element) you begin at room temperature and then heat the honey so it is going to take you however long it takes to reach the target temperature. A pre-heated oven and kettle are at the target temperature before you begin. So given these two characteristics the conditions are fundamentally different and when moe than one condition is different you are not "experimenting" , you are playing at experimentation.

and it may not be that one is better than the other but which one you prefer. (I am NOT a cook or a chef, but I make a great deal of my food from scratch - including vegetarian burgers. Most "recipes" call out the need to fry these burgers. Great. But I bake mine. But when you bake them you need to tweak the recipe because the "recipe" assumes the use of cooking in deep hot oil not baking in hot air.

"and it may not be that one is better than the other but which one you prefer.".

I think that's all food and brewing and such in general.

Used to work with a guy who's mom was a terrible cook. Used to burn everything. When the vanilla butter cookies got away from us and turned into Kingsford he used to love eating them.

I despise coffee...

It all about personal preference.

 

[Metalchef1]

"and it may not be that one is better than the other but which one you prefer.".

I think that's all food and brewing and such in general.

Used to work with a guy who's mom was a terrible cook. Used to burn everything. When the vanilla butter cookies got away from us and turned into Kingsford he used to love eating them.

I despise coffee...

It all about personal preference.

While I agree with preheating the oven... Heating the pot is mostly pointless... As soon as you open the door to the oven the temperature drop... Take the pot out and it cools rapidly..
Preheating the oven is more to save time than any other reason (with savory... Pastry is a bit different).
Picture foil.... It can be handled instantly after oven removal

 

[bernardsmith]

Makes good sense but I have a Le Creuset dutch oven that I would use (great for making sour dough bread) and the mass of that pot tends to hold the heat rather longer than aluminum pots. But you are right, pouring honey can be a slow process so even that pot is liable to give up some (much?) of its heat, although, even at 150 F it will still take less time to reach the target temperature than it would at 68 F (the ambient in my kitchen).

 

[Metalchef1]

Makes good sense but I have a Le Creuset dutch oven that I would use (great for making sour dough bread) and the mass of that pot tends to hold the heat rather longer than aluminum pots. But you are right, pouring honey can be a slow process so even that pot is liable to give up some (much?) of its heat, although, even at 150 F it will still take less time to reach the target temperature than it would at 68 F (the ambient in my kitchen).

Yeah enamel coated cast iron is a whole other ball game. That'll probably hold Heat 10 times as long as anything else would