Blood orange sour

[Shwagger]

I am doing a 2.5 gal kettle sour this Saturday, very basic 2 row and a dash of wheat malt. Plan is to mash, sparge, get to 100-110 degrees Freedom, and then add 3 Swanson's tabs (pantarum). Typical kettle sour. After it hits my desired sourness, which I want a lot, boil, add very few hops like tetnanger or hallertau, and ferment with neutral yeast like S-05. I dont have the space for a primary sour method right now.

I have just shy of 3 lbs of blood oranges. Should i zest, peel, and freeze? Add meat to boil and zest to primary before bottling? Something different?

TYIA

 

[Jag75]

If you have a chance check out co pitch sour . @RPh_Guy - it's a great method gets you a sour without the high risks of contamination. I'm not into sours so much but I've had to brew a handful of times within the last few months for people. That's how well and quick it turns out . I would add zest to last 5 min of boiling . As for the fruit I use 5-6 # for a 5 gallon batch. I rack over previously frozen fruit which I thawed out .

I'd also make a tincture with the peels , no pith then add at packaging

 

[Shwagger]

If you have a chance check out co pitch sour . @RPh_Guy - it's a great method gets you a sour without the high risks of contamination. I'm not into sours so much but I've had to brew a handful of times within the last few months for people. That's how well and quick it turns out . I would add zest to last 5 min of boiling . As for the fruit I use 5-6 # for a 5 gallon batch. I rack over previously frozen fruit which I thawed out .

I'd also make a tincture with the peels , no pith then add at packaging

I believe I've read up on the co pitch but will have to refresh my memory. What is the time difference when co pitching to get the ph really low?

I also think adding the fruit after primary will be better. I was thinking adding to the boil would throw my malt bill off

 

[Jag75]

You just make the wort as normal . You dont use any hops during this part . After the boil you pitch like any other beer. I use wlp644 . 48 hrs after pitching you add the Lactobacillus. I use goodbellys. After fermentation rack over fruit . I let it soak for 2 weeks. 3 days before I package I dry hop with .5 oz . Works like a charm . I just use 70% 2row and 30% white wheat .

 

[RPh_Guy]

More info here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/

 

[Jag75]

The sour whisperer^^^^^^lol

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm not sure whether it would have any impact, but be aware that bacteria eat citric acid (present in large quantities in oranges), and can produce some undesirable compounds from it.
It might be wise to add hops at the same time you add the oranges. The timing of the peels doesn't matter since they don't contain citric acid.

 

[Jag75]

I wonder if an orange peel tincture would be better in this then oranges themselves

 

[Shwagger]

There are plenty of citrus sours on the market. I wonder how they deal with it

 

[RPh_Guy]

As I mentioned, just add hops along with the fruit and it'll be fine.

 

[Jag75]

As I mentioned, just add hops along with the fruit and it'll be fine.

Are you saying that the hops keep the citric acid in check?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are you saying that the hops keep the citric acid in check?

No, hops prevent the bacteria from eating it.

Although, bacteria only eat citric acid as a last resort, so there may not be a problem either way since they will have access to wort sugars and simple fruit sugars. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, probably nothing to worry about.

 

[Shwagger]

I'll be sure to let you know in a few weeks time. I want it pucker sour but need the fermentation chamber open 1st week of March.


Hmm, might have to move it to the closet if its not done by then

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't make fruit beer, but my sours are done and ready to package within a normal ale timeframe, 3-5 days or so from brew day. Most people leave it on fruit for 1-2 weeks, so you're looking at maybe 3 weeks maximum.

 

[Shwagger]

I don't make fruit beer, but my sours are done and ready to package within a normal ale timeframe, 3-5 days or so from brew day. Most people leave it on fruit for 1-2 weeks, so you're looking at maybe 3 weeks maximum.

What kind of sour/ph are you getting at this time?

I'm looking for Warhead type sour

 

[RPh_Guy]

The bacteria blend that I use bottoms out around 3.25-3.35 in this timeframe.

There's a lot more to perceived sourness than pH. I could probably help you get a face-melting sour beer, but you need to be sure that's what you really want.

Do you currently build or modify your brewing water profile?

 

[Shwagger]

The bacteria blend that I use bottoms out around 3.25-3.35 in this timeframe.

There's a lot more to perceived sourness than pH. I could probably help you get a face-melting sour beer, but you need to be sure that's what you really want.

Do you currently build or modify your brewing water profile?

I build from RO

And using swansons Plantarum pills

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hmmm, ultimate sourness. Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't tested it. I like a good amount of sourness but not so much that it's unpleasant or obscures the other flavors in the beer, so this isn't something I would make except for the sake of experimentation.

Per 1 gallon of water, try this for the profile:
0.7g gypsum
0.7g epsom
0.25g calcium chloride (dihydrate)
0.4g baking soda
Whatever acid to hit to target mash pH.

Reasoning:
High sulfate vs chloride will increase perceived sourness, and magnesium will add a little sourness. Increasing the alkalinity ultimately increases the amount of acid and therefore the sourness.

We can manipulate the Lacto starter to greatly increase the amount of acid through buffering:
Pull off a fairly large amount of chilled wort for the Lacto starter before pitching yeast, a whole gallon, and add 50g calcium carbonate. When adding it back after 1-2 days, do not add the starter sediment to the beer.

You may also consider adding the peels of a few Granny Smith apples (pasteurize them first). Malic acid will probably improve the acid profile and it packs a punch.

Cheers

 

[Shwagger]

I will try the water part. Wont likely do a starter for the lacto. Looking forward to thr punch!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds good. There's plenty of leeway to add some calcium chloride and/or sodium chloride afterwards if you decide that the sourness/dryness from this profile is too much.

 

[Shwagger]

I had a thought. How does the low temp of 65 affect the bugs? I figure they still work, but is it slower than at 110?

 

[RPh_Guy]

L. plantarum sours quickly at 65 or higher.

 

[Shwagger]

So far numbera are good. Its cooling to 65 and I'll pitch the yeast soon. Orange peel went a long way, great smell of oranges.

I was thinking of either soaking the orange meat in cheap vodka before adding or juicing them and boil the juice to sanitize, then pour it in. Less mess too. But there might be enough alcohol when I add them that it's not needed.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I would pasteurize fruit at 145-150F for 20-30 minutes.