Blonde ale = Kölsch ?

[worlddivides]

I think that is the point I am getting at - common usage is not necessarily correct, just often used. And often used does not make correct. One can use ain't all they want but it is up the individual to decide how they want to be viewed. In this case, we have a native speaker showing us the proper way so choosing to continue down the "stated wrong path" is a choice of convenience, not ignorance.

This is a mountain out of a mole hill, but I see it as a movement in US society today. "We have our way, and it may be wrong but it is our way, so it is right...".

We have a native speaker... of German telling us how it's spelled and pronounced... in German. Київ may be how Kyiv/Kyev is written in Ukrainian, but that doesn't mean it's the "proper way" of writing it in English. In this case, German and English are both West Germanic languages that are closely related unlike Ukrainian which is an East Slavic language, so it's easier for most native English speakers to write Kölsch than Київ. Since it's a term that is mainly only used among beer enthusiasts, you're unlikely to find it in an English dictionary, but words borrowed from other European languages typically have at least two correct spellings: one that uses the original language's typography and one that only uses English's native typography.

Not using an umlaut being a whole movement in US society of intentionally being wrong seems like a pretty huge jump. I don't even live in the US or an English-language country for that matter. In Japanese, Kölsch is pronounced "Kerushu." Should we demand Japanese people pronounce the L even though there is no L in Japanese? Should we demand they don't pronounce the "u" at the end because there's no "u" at the end in German even though Japanese doesn't work like that? Are all Japanese people continuing down the "stated wrong path"?

 

[Miraculix]

We have a native speaker... of German telling us how it's spelled and pronounced... in German. Київ may be how Kyiv/Kyev is written in Ukrainian, but that doesn't mean it's the "proper way" of writing it in English. In this case, German and English are both West Germanic languages that are closely related unlike Ukrainian which is an East Slavic language, so it's easier for most native English speakers to write Kölsch than Київ. Since it's a term that is mainly only used among beer enthusiasts, you're unlikely to find it in an English dictionary, but words borrowed from other European languages typically have at least two correct spellings: one that uses the original language's typography and one that only uses English's native typography.

Not using an umlaut being a whole movement in US society of intentionally being wrong seems like a pretty huge jump. I don't even live in the US or an English-language country for that matter. In Japanese, Kölsch is pronounced "Kerushu." Should we demand Japanese people pronounce the L even though there is no L in Japanese? Should we demand they don't pronounce the "u" at the end because there's no "u" at the end in German even though Japanese doesn't work like that? Are all Japanese people continuing down the "stated wrong path"?

The Japanese didn't copy the word, they made up one on their own for it. That's totally fine.

The Muricans and other English speaking countries in line, copied it and misspelled it. That's a difference.

 

[An Ankoù]

I think that is the point I am getting at - common usage is not necessarily correct, just often used. And often used does not make correct. One can use ain't all they want but it is up the individual to decide how they want to be viewed. In this case, we have a native speaker showing us the proper way so choosing to continue down the "stated wrong path" is a choice of convenience, not ignorance.

This is a mountain out of a mole hill, but I see it as a movement in US society today. "We have our way, and it may be wrong but it is our way, so it is right...".

Surely there's a point where common usage becomes correct language: "I will" used to be frowned upon in favour of "I shall", but no longer. If this were not the case. language would not evolve. As for a native speaker showing us the right way, a native speaker of German can only dictate the rules of German. Are we wrong to call Köln "Cologne"? I'd argue that we'd be pretentious to start calling it Köln. Why? Because Cologne has become established in the English language, while kölsch/kolsch/koelsch is a relatively recent discovery. But there's no reason why we can't change a word, China's capital used to be Peking and it's still Pékin in french.
Who is right when usage is evolving or two words are accepted as correct: racquet/racket, draught/draft, liquorice/licorice? Which spelling is correct of labour/labor, colour/color? The first is correct in British English and incorrect in American English because you should decide which branch of the language you're using and stay within that branch at least during the current interaction.
That's what I think anyway, innit!

 

[An Ankoù]

The Muricans and other English speaking countries in line, copied it and misspelled it. That's a difference.

No they didn't misspell it, they rendered it as closely as they could using the sounds used in English and the character set used to write the English language.
The worst misspellers are the Chinese. I'm sure Ecksie could render the sound of his name more closely using English characters than "Xi".
In any case, we're missing the elephant in the room. Writing is primarily a way of recording speech and we've become so bored down with the minutiae of spelling that we've completely lost track of the fact that kölsch should be written more like "curlsh" to approximate the sound in English.

 

[Brewsmith]

I’ll lighten the mood and stir the pot at the same time!

Here’s my authentic glass for serving said German beer, the Stange. Oops, the word “Stange” just got red lined!

Now why is the URL spelled differently from the logo?

Prost, Cheers, and Kampai, or umm Kanpai, wait, they’re both red lined!

 

[An Ankoù]

Not sure we know what a "stanger" is, but we might stretch to a curlsh glass.

Yec'hed mat (or mad, depending which dialect you drink in).

 

[Miraculix]

No they didn't misspell it, they rendered it as closely as they could using the sounds used in English and the character set used to write the English language.
The worst misspellers are the Chinese. I'm sure Ecksie could render the sound of his name more closely using English characters than "Xi".
In any case, we're missing the elephant in the room. Writing is primarily a way of recording speech and we've become so bored down with the minutiae of spelling that we've completely lost track of the fact that kölsch should be written more like "curlsh" to approximate the sound in English.

Kölsch is a name mate, no rendering there. Either give it your own name, or use the one that exists properly. That's Koelsch or Kölsch.

You have obviously also the right to write it another way. It's just that pretending that the other way is the correct way just because somebody else also writes it the other way is a bit..... Well....

 

[Miraculix]

I like the curlsh glass. Maybe curlsh stein would be even a tad bit nicer, as I've never heard a single German call a beer glass a stein.

 

[worlddivides]

The Japanese didn't copy the word, they made up one on their own for it. That's totally fine.

The Muricans and other English speaking countries in line, copied it and misspelled it. That's a difference.

"Kerushu" isn't a made-up word. It's the Japanese pronunciation of Kölsch. Japanese is limited in what it can write or say by its very language. Japanese is not an alphabetic language like English or German. It's a syllabic language, which means that there are only 46 syllables in Japanese that can be used. That's why the fast food restaurant McDonald's in Japanese is Makudonarudo. They can't do "Mc" because there needs to be a vowel in between the sounds M and K. They can't use L because the Japanese language doesn't have the L sound. And they can't do "ld" because there needs to be a vowel in between those two consonants. You can't end a sound with "sh," so it needs a vowel after it. Hence Kölsch, when pronounced according to how the Japanese language works, becomes "Kerushu."

On the other hand, English just changed ö to o.

And if you're going to argue that it should be "Koelsch" instead of "Kolsch," then we should also argue it shouldn't be "Berliner Weisse" but "Berliner Veisse" since in English, the German W is pronounced more like the English V (and the German V is pronounced more like the English F).

 

[An Ankoù]

Kölsch is a name mate, no rendering there. Either give it your own name, or use the one that exists properly. That's Koelsch or Kölsch.

While I agree with "give it your own name" the ö is meaningless in English. When the diactitical is used in loan words, it indicates that two sequential vowels are to be pronounced separately. The convention arose because ö didn't appear as a key on many typewriters.
Bit kölsch isn't a proper noun it indicates a style in the same way that altbier is a style. Kölsch isn't a brand. Guinness is a brand (proper noun) while stout is a style.
In any case, what about: Frankreich, Spanien, Griechenland, Athen etc.? These names haven't been rendered in their original language.

But ore than all that, how do you justify rendering Panoramix as Miraculix?



(that's a tongue-in-cheek question. I know perfectly well that that was the cartoon-writer's decision).

 

[Miraculix]

While I agree with "give it your own name" the ö is meaningless in English. When the diactitical is used in loan words, it indicates that two sequential vowels are to be pronounced separately. The convention arose because ö didn't appear as a key on many typewriters.
Bit kölsch isn't a proper noun it indicates a style in the same way that altbier is a style. Kölsch isn't a brand. Guinness is a brand (proper noun) while stout is a style.
In any case, what about: Frankreich, Spanien, Griechenland, Athen etc.? These names haven't been rendered in their original language.

But ore than all that, how do you justify rendering Panoramix as Miraculix?



(that's a tongue-in-cheek question. I know perfectly well that that was the cartoon-writer's decision).

Kölsch is a noun. And it is a protected name by federal law in Europe. So yeah, there's basically no way of writing it another way than the original way.

Or you rename it properly, cologny is still on the table!

But I honestly also like Curlsh or Coalsh.

It would make my day if I someday come to the us of a and find a beer labelled Cologny.

 

[Miraculix]

"Kerushu" isn't a made-up word. It's the Japanese pronunciation of Kölsch. Japanese is limited in what it can write or say by its very language. Japanese is not an alphabetic language like English or German. It's a syllabic language, which means that there are only 46 syllables in Japanese that can be used. That's why the fast food restaurant McDonald's in Japanese is Makudonarudo. They can't do "Mc" because there needs to be a vowel in between the sounds M and K. They can't use L because the Japanese language doesn't have the L sound. And they can't do "ld" because there needs to be a vowel in between those two consonants. You can't end a sound with "sh," so it needs a vowel after it. Hence Kölsch, when pronounced according to how the Japanese language works, becomes "Kerushu."

On the other hand, English just changed ö to o.

And if you're going to argue that it should be "Koelsch" instead of "Kolsch," then we should also argue it shouldn't be "Berliner Weisse" but "Berliner Veisse" since in English, the German W is pronounced more like the English V (and the German V is pronounced more like the English F).

Difference is, there's no official way of writing Umlaute in Japanese writing. They have to be creative!

English can lay back, have a look into some smart book and use ae oe and ue.

 

[worlddivides]

Kölsch is a noun. And it is a protected name by federal law in Europe. So yeah, there's basically no way of writing it another way than the original way.

Or you rename it properly, cologny is still on the table!

But I honestly also like Curlsh or Coalsh.

It would make my day if I someday come to the us of a and find a beer labelled Cologny.

I think Colognian would be more accurate than Cologny since Colognian is the adjective form for Cologne, and just like Kölsch is used to refer to the dialect of German spoken in Cologne, Colognian is the English used to refer to the dialect of German spoken in Cologne. Personally, though, if we were to use that, I'd say "Colognian style of beer" or "Cologne-style beer."

But even if we decided on an English word to use for the beer style, it'd be useless if no one other than us used it.

 

[worlddivides]

Difference is, there's no official way of writing Umlaute in Japanese writing. They have to be creative!

English can lay back, have a look into some smart book and use ae oe and ue.

That's because German words in Japanese are written with katakana and not the alphabet.

I don't tend to see anyone other than linguists using ae, oe, and ue for ä, ö, and ü (not to claim that linguists are the only ones who do, of course). And linguists are much more likely to just use ä, ö, and ü, though ae, oe, and ue definitely give a better idea of how ä, ö, and ü are pronounced for those who don't know. But it comes down to the same issue. It's easy to say people should use ae, oe, and ue, but people are most likely to either A: use the umlaut, or B: use the alphabet character with the umlaut erased (in this case, a, o, and u).

 

[An Ankoù]

Difference is, there's no official way of writing Umlaute in Japanese writing. They have to be creative!

English can lay back, have a look into some smart book and use ae oe and ue.

No they can't. It's not English. ae is rare and and is pronounced as in pee. oe at the end of a word is usually pronounced as in owe or a mangling of the word it originated from as the "oo" in canoe. ue is all aver the place, but has no correspondence with german, most commonly you or oo.
We have our own ways of approximating sounds from other languages that don't naturally occur in English.
The issue at stake is whether we choose to copy a foreign word as written in the original language or whether we choose to assimilate it into our language. If the latter then we'll use the conventions of our own language.

 

[Miraculix]

I think Colognian would be more accurate than Cologny since Colognian is the adjective form for Cologne, and just like Kölsch is used to refer to the dialect of German spoken in Cologne, Colognian is the English used to refer to the dialect of German spoken in Cologne. Personally, though, if we were to use that, I'd say "Colognian style of beer" or "Cologne-style beer."

But even if we decided on an English word to use for the beer style, it'd be useless if no one other than us used it.

Kölsch has these two independent meanings. It's basically two words in one.
Just like "Blatt" is referring to a sheet of paper or a leave. So yeah, Colognian would also work but I prefer Cologny because it's sounding funnier.

No they can't. It's not English. ae is rare and and is pronounced as in pee. oe at the end of a word is usually pronounced as in owe or a mangling of the word it originated from as the "oo" in canoe. ue is all aver the place, but has no correspondence with german, most commonly you or oo.
We have our own ways of approximating sounds from other languages that don't naturally occur in English.
The issue at stake is whether we choose to copy a foreign word as written in the original language or whether we choose to assimilate it into our language. If the latter then we'll use the conventions of our own language.

Interesting. I've had the impression that the overall pronunciation of Japanese words and their syllables are pretty close to the main German pronunciation.

 

[lumpher]

I officially dub it "beer"... or "bier"...

 

[worlddivides]

Interesting. I've had the impression that the overall pronunciation of Japanese words and their syllables are pretty close to the main German pronunciation.

He was talking about English. English is MUCH closer to German than Japanese, which shouldn't be surprising considering English and German are in the same language family while Japanese is... pretty far removed from any European language.

For reference, I did a search on YouTube and here is a Japanese alcoholic beverage-drinking YouTuber traveling to Cologne to drink Kölsch and saying the Japanese word for both Cologne (Kerun) and Kölsch (kerushu) multiple times as she drinks the beer in Cologne.



As an example of a loan word from German to Japanese that is used extremely often, "arubaito" comes from the German word "Arbeit," but in Japanese, "arubaito" means "part-time job" and not work in general. The pronunciation doesn't really resemble German at all in my opinion.

 

[fluketamer]

i miss lalemand kolsch

 

[An Ankoù]

He was talking about English. English is MUCH closer to German than Japanese, which shouldn't be surprising considering English and German are in the same language family while Japanese is... pretty far removed from any European language.

For reference, I did a search on YouTube and here is a Japanese alcoholic beverage-drinking YouTuber traveling to Cologne to drink Kölsch and saying the Japanese word for both Cologne (Kerun) and Kölsch (kerushu) multiple times as she drinks the beer in Cologne.



As an example of a loan word from German to Japanese that is used extremely often, "arubaito" comes from the German word "Arbeit," but in Japanese, "arubaito" means "part-time job" and not work in general. The pronunciation doesn't really resemble German at all in my opinion.

Got as far as konichi wa and couldn't make out another word, let alone identify the key words. I'll have to listen again. In the meantime, could you find a speaker who isn't struggling with her dentures!

 

[worlddivides]

Got as far as konichi wa and couldn't make out another word, let alone identify the key words. I'll have to listen again. In the meantime, could you find a speaker who isn't struggling with her dentures!

She's definitely reading from a pre-prepared script that she wrote. While she's reading it with proper pronunciation and rhythm and all that, she's reading it in a somewhat monotone fashion.

That said, most of the other videos of Japanese YouTubers drinking Kölsch in Cologne, it's not a voiceover but the raw audio of the trip. It varies in clarity, but it's usually not as clear.

This video only has 27 views, but it's only 1 minute and 20 seconds long and he put English subtitles on it for his Japanese as he explains about the style of beer Kölsch, so it should be the easiest to follow for hearing how Kölsch and Cologne are pronounced in Japanese:

(The only part he didn't put subtitles for is the intro)

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

i miss lalemand kolsch
View attachment 875023

Two packs in my cooler. Might be a new investment to continue my retirement?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

English lost its combined letters like

By the time of Shakespeare

 

[Bassman2003]

We have a native speaker... of German telling us how it's spelled and pronounced... in German. Київ may be how Kyiv/Kyev is written in Ukrainian, but that doesn't mean it's the "proper way" of writing it in English. In this case, German and English are both West Germanic languages that are closely related unlike Ukrainian which is an East Slavic language, so it's easier for most native English speakers to write Kölsch than Київ. Since it's a term that is mainly only used among beer enthusiasts, you're unlikely to find it in an English dictionary, but words borrowed from other European languages typically have at least two correct spellings: one that uses the original language's typography and one that only uses English's native typography.

Not using an umlaut being a whole movement in US society of intentionally being wrong seems like a pretty huge jump. I don't even live in the US or an English-language country for that matter. In Japanese, Kölsch is pronounced "Kerushu." Should we demand Japanese people pronounce the L even though there is no L in Japanese? Should we demand they don't pronounce the "u" at the end because there's no "u" at the end in German even though Japanese doesn't work like that? Are all Japanese people continuing down the "stated wrong path"?

To be clear, never said folks should be using the umlaut in English situations. The Koelsch spelling is not a bridge too far.

Side question - Does "Kerushu" have any other meaning or use in the Japanese language/culture?

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

It'll always be just Kolsch to me.

 

[worlddivides]

Side question - Does "Kerushu" have any other meaning or use in the Japanese language/culture?

No. Just the beer style from Cologne, Germany.

 

[lumpher]

It'll always be just Kolsch to me.

I'm going to call it "That light-colored beer you make that's a blonde but NOT a BLONDE, and uses mostly Pils Malt and certain top-fermenting yeasts that has a crisp, slightly hoppy, and a light fruity taste that is very clean"... or maybe just "beer". Someone might not want to talk to me about that style anymore, though...

 

[Miraculix]

I was always wondering why especially homebrewers from overseas are so fascinated by this particular blonde ale.

Most of the Germans compare it to a certain liquid excretion of the human body or best treat it like "meh.. it's a beer". The small minority that somehow does not reject it instantly does not drink beer or is actually from cologne.

I for myself think it is a pretty boring brew and nothing special at all. It is a relatively clean blonde ale with a moderate to quite bitter and dry finish. Nothing special in my book.

It is like:

"Mooooooomyyyyy!!! Can I have a lager?! PLEASE!?"

"We have lager at home Charlie."

The lager at home:

 

[Closet Fermenter]

If you want to do it the easy AND “correct” way, just set it up in “ text replacement” setting under keyboard in general settings. If I type k-o-l-s-c-h, it automatically changes to Kölsch. (No hyphens) Same with c-o-2 to CO₂ . Saves me a lot of effort here.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

My Kolsch from yesterday evening, good carbonation but poor head. Tastes good.