Blind From Bad Beer?

[Kayos]

I am hearing a lot on this board lately that hooch or home distillery types can make you blind. Is this all in fun? Where did that rumor start? Is it some 1850's thing?

 

[Beerrific]

No rumor. If you get to crazy and get some types of bacteria in the stuff you are trying to ferment you can get some methanol. Drink enough methanol you will go blind.

I think this is particular bad if you distill because then you you concentrate the methanol.

 

[RichBrewer]

Plus you will get hair on your palms.


Oh wait. I think that is from something else...

 

[pfranco81]

Distillers use really active yeast that just ferment the crap out of whatever it is you have. This not only creates ethanol (good) but also methanol and a whole host of stuff you dont want to drink. Methanol converts to formaldahyde in your stomach which severs your optic nerve.

This is only a problem with distilling because they concentrate their alcohol, and if not done correctly, you can get dangerous amounts of bad things in your liquor.

 

[Beerrific]

Funny enough a common treatment for methanol poisoning is IV infusion of ethanol. Ethanol is a competitive inhibitor of alcohol dehydrogenase which break methanol down into formaldahyde.

 

[olllllo]

Not beer and not directly due to distilling but..

it can make you walk funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_ginger

 

[RichBrewer]

Distillers use really active yeast that just ferment the crap out of whatever it is you have. This not only creates ethanol (good) but also methanol and a whole host of stuff you dont want to drink. Methanol converts to formaldahyde in your stomach which severs your optic nerve.

This is only a problem with distilling because they concentrate their alcohol, and if not done correctly, you can get dangerous amounts of bad things in your liquor.

I think I will stick to wine and beer.

 

[delboy]

A load of old horseradish i've stayed with friends in crete where the country folk all distill their own wine on antiquated stills, they drink a good glass uncut with nearly every meal except maybe breakfast and guess what they aren't all walking around with guidedogs, there tends to be a load of rubbishh talked about distilling (mostly by people that haven't done it).

 

[Yooper]

Vodka, whiskey, etc are all distilled and are safe to buy and drink. I'm sure there are quite a few home distillers that know what they are doing, too. Still, it IS dangerous and can be deadly if it's not done properly. Many people drank moonshine (and grappa, etc) and didn't go blind or die from it, but some did. That's probably one of the reasons that home distillation is illegal.

From the wiki: Incompetently distilled drinks also contain distillation heads, which are poisonous in large amounts and consist mostly of methanol and foul-smelling byproducts of fermentation.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

A load of old horseradish i've stayed with friends in crete where the country folk all distill their own wine on antiquated stills, they drink a good glass uncut with nearly every meal except maybe breakfast and guess what they aren't all walking around with guidedogs, there tends to be a load of rubbishh talked about distilling (mostly by people that haven't done it).

Ever see the movie "Reefer Madness"?

Our country has always tried to scare people away from things that are illegal. I am sure you can go blind from distilling. I'm also sure that old Jethro in the backwoods doesn't have a Masters degree from MIT. I am absolutely convinced a lot of the "information" you hear is hogwash.

But combine a couple of scary anecdotes with a law prohibiting it and that's a pretty nice combination.

 

[delboy]

Vodka, whiskey, etc are all distilled and are safe to buy and drink. I'm sure there are quite a few home distillers that know what they are doing, too. Still, it IS dangerous and can be deadly if it's not done properly. Many people drank moonshine (and grappa, etc) and didn't go blind or die from it, but some did. That's probably one of the reasons that home distillation is illegal.

From the wiki: Incompetently distilled drinks also contain distillation heads, which are poisonous in large amounts and consist mostly of methanol and foul-smelling byproducts of fermentation.

Its a case of rubbish in rubbish out, the distillation process does nothing more than concentrate the volatile compounds present in the liquid, it does not some how create new dangerous componds like methanol etc.
What ever the yeast produce in the fermentaion process ie what we pour down our necks on a regular basis is what you are going to end up with at the other end only more concentrated!!!
I for one don't believe that my homebrew is full of methanol (the fact that i can see the screen and type is testament to that) but for arguments sake say it was, by distilling the beer you could infact easily remove the methanol (discard the first fractions of the still) thereby actually purifying the ethanol to get a less harmful product.

The most dangerous thing about home distilling i would say is probably the generation of highly flammable volatile compounds close to a heat source, forgot about losing your eyesight you stand more chance of ending up in the local burns unit.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Going back to the topic at hand, has anyone ever smelled or tasted straight methanol? Is it even drinkable? Do you notice it?

I've smelled methanol fuels, but I can't say whether I would notice it in a shot of whiskey or pint of beer in a very small quantity. Anyone want to admit to having any experience with this?

 

[delboy]

Going back to the topic at hand, has anyone ever smelled or tasted straight methanol? Is it even drinkable? Do you notice it?

I've smelled methanol fuels, but I can't say whether I would notice it in a shot of whiskey or pint of beer in a very small quantity. Anyone want to admit to having any experience with this?

i've smelt it plenty of times it has a very slight alcoholic smell with a bit of an acidic twang to it, have i tasted it god no, its pretty damn nasty.
Im guessing though if you poured it into whiskey you wouldn't be able to taste it.

 

[EvilTOJ]

If you want to taste methanol, have some automotive antifreeze! There's plenty in that stuff.

That's also what some people used to cut moonshine with during prohibition to make it not taste like the suffering of orphaned children. Needless to say, when the liver converts it to formaldehyde, Bad Things Happen.

 

[DeathBrewer]

zombie apocalypse?

Warning! Do not use Worcestershire sauce for embalming fluid!

 

[grrtt78]

i was watching the history of distilling on the history channel and they said alot of the blindness was cuased from bad hooch that was cut with antifreeze, turpentine and stuff like that. most hooch is totally safe but people still attribute blindness to hooch in general not the stuff it was cut with. (tho hooch can make u blind its almost entirely safe if uncut)

 

[Orfy]

Bad beer will do plenty of things bit if it's still beer then it won't be a problem as far as methanol is concerned.

Basically Methanol in relatively small amounts of an high enough concentration can blind or kill you.

When distilling some of the first and last alcohol to come off is Methanol.
If you where to drink as little as a glass of this stuff then it can kill you.
Drink enough of a lower concentration or enough of it mixed with other substances then it can still blind or kill you.

My advice is either do plenty of research and be confident you know what you are doing or don't bother and risk it. I know what I'd do.

10cl can blind you. 30cl can kill you.
Don't believe me, then do some research.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I don't recall anyone mentioning it, but I've been blinded while drinking too much good beer!!

 

[HenryHill]

Beer just makes ugly chicks look hot. Sometimes you can see double. Just hold one hand over one eye.

Pour off (and dispose) the first stuff that evaporates and the rest is all good.

 

[rod]

research info www.homedistiller.org
not that i have tried it

 

[fretman124]

research info www.homedistiller.org
not that i have tried it

I, of course have NEVER distilled anything, but the following is from the site noted above. Pay attention to the bold text.


Will I go Blind ?
A big fear for many new distillers is that they are risking poisoning themselves with methanol - a toxin that can cause blindness. There is little basis for this fear however; if formed, it is only in small amounts, and can be easily discarded with the "heads" collected first (see here) during distillation.

A simple (but effective) rule of thumb for this is to throw away the first 50 mL you collect (per 20 L mash used) for a reflux still. If using a potstill, make it more like 100-200 mL. Do this, and you have removed all the hazardous foreshots, including the methanol. To get a really clean distinction between the foreshots and the rest of the alcohol, increase the reflux ratio to the point where you're taking off this first 50 mL at a very slow rate (eg 1 drop per second). This will give a very stable equilibrium within the column to allow all the methanol to collect at the top of the column and be in this first portion.

If you are doing a double or triple distillation with a pot still, don't worry about removing the heads & tails on the first pass. Wait for the second run, when they are more distinct & easier to seperate. Once you have removed them, they are gone, so much less will need to be discarded from the subsequent runs, other than that dictated by taste, and any improved seperation that may result from running a more pure distillate through the still.

How dangerous are the various fusel oils ? I've got some of them listed below.
The ones with toxicity data listed are ...
Methanol : usual fatal dose 100-250 mL
1-Pentanol : LD50 (rat) 3030 mg/kg
3-Pentanol : LD50 (rat) 1870 mg/kg
Compare this to the amounts present in distilled spirits. The data in Wheeler & Willmotts "Spirits unlimited - a complete guide to home distilling" gives :
Home distilled spirit (untreated): methanol 0.0067%, ethanol 99.632%, fusils 0.361%
Commercial vodka: methanol 0.013%, ethanol 99.507%, fusils 0.48%
Poor quality home distilled spirit : methanol 0.0186%, ethanol 98.453%, and fusils 1.528%If you're talking about untreated spirits as being dangerous, then to reach the LD50's that are published, you'd need to consume 149 L to be affected by the methanol, or for a 90kg bloke, about 58 L for the pentanol, from the "good" homemade stuff. That would be one hell of a session ! Even on their "poor quality" brew you'd need 11 L for the fusels. Stock standard pissed-as-a-newt high-school-student alcohol poisoning is the greater problem.
Now their "home distilled spirit" was at a time when their best design was only putting out roughly 75% pure ethanol. What's the story from like a Nixon-Stone or Euro doing 95%+ purity ?

Compare that to the levels of methanol etc that you get via other sources ...
Methanol & Other Impurities

Methanol is formed when fermenting beverages high in pectins - eg grapes and berries. Starting with a grain or sugar based wort, in a clean fermentor with a yeast culture from a well aereated source will result in small/none formed.
Carl from Hambletonbard (makers of Alcotec yeasts) details ..
Methanol, you will typically get around 2 or 3 parts per million (or milligrams per litre if you prefer) of methanol produced during fermentation of a standard 6kg type Alcotec - this is extremely low even compared to commercial products. We don't have a great deal of data on methanol because whenever we have tested for it we have got extremely low results.
Mike explains about the pectin ..
The methanol comes from the pectin, which mainly composed of methyl esters of galactose. When pectin breaks down, by enzymes introduced by microorganisms, or deliberately introduced, the methyl esters combine with water to produce methanol, so the aim should be to leave the pectin well alone if you can.

I think Jack would agree that what he means is that fermenting at a high temperature, or adding pectin enzyme, or trying for an abv higher than 12% all increase the risk of methanol being produced, so his advice about low temperature fermentation, adding no exra enzymes, and a target lower than 12%abv is all good stuff.

You are already being exposed to methanol from other sources. Some fruit juices are naturally high in methanol - for example apple juice can have 0.2-0.3% methanol, or if derived from pulp by enzymatic degradation, the levels can be 2 to 3 times higher.

Johan found ..
In http://archive.food.gov.uk/maff/archive/food/infsheet/1993/no17/17orange.htm orange juice contains 10 to 50 times as much methanol as sugarmash.

The lethal dose of methanol is at least 100 ml that is equal to about 80000 mg or you need 27000 liters of mash at least to get that amount.

also from the webpage: "Dietary surveys have shown that an extreme consumer of orange juice drinks slightly over 2 litres/day. The estimated maximum intake of methanol based on this consumption would be 455 mg for a 60 kg adult which is below the maximum advisory intake of 600 mg per day for a 60 kg adult, recommended by the Department of Health."

So if we stay under 600 mg per day we are safe, that's the same as 200 liters of mash per day or about 70 liters of 40% alcohol per day if you weight is 60 kg.

total amount of methanol in mash expressed in ml is about 0.1 ml = nothing.

Jack comments ...
The Long Ashton Research Station did some studies that showed that ciders and apple juices clarified with pectic enzymes are higher in methanol due to the demethylation of juice pectins. The methanol content varied from 10 to 400 ppm in the test samples. I don't know which fruits are highest/lowest in pectin content, but apples are commonly considered the highest.

This is why all the old books on cider making refer to a condition called "apple palsey" - it's the massively painfull hangover from the high methanol content. In order to prevent this (I'm sure distilling the pectin turns it into methanol) distillers must fully clarify any fruit wine before cooking it. Rather than use clarifiers, put the wine into 2 or 4 liter plastic jugs (only filled half full) and freeze them solid, then thaw them out, this will result in perfectly clear (and chill- stabilized) wine ready for distilling. After the thawing is complete or maybe as much as a week after, the wine will be crystal clear.
Stephen Alexander reports that commercial spirits contain small levels of methanol. 'Food Chemistry' by Belitz&Grosch list an assay of about 50 different components of about 10 different distilled beverages. The US and Scotch whiskies had methanol levels around 0.2 to 0.3 %. Kevin Brown has scanned in some MeOH chromatograms from a column application guide published by Supelco of Bellefonte, PA. (a vendor for chromatography supplies). Check out http://amlc.uvi.edu/distill/meoh.html for details.

See also "Increasing Direct Marketing for Fruit Farmers by Connecting Producer to Producer through Research and Development of a Value-Added Product" at http://www.ams.usda.gov/tmd/FSMIP/FY2001/MO0341.pdf for quite a detailed report into the compostion & quantities of impurities present etc in fruit brandies, and the factors affecting their production.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) advised ATF that 0.1 percent of methanol by volume in wine was a safe level. Any wine containing methanol in excess of this amount is deemed adulterated pursuant to the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, 21 U.S.C. 34l(a)(2)(C) and 348.

From http://www.polishvodkas.com/fr_vodka-tech.htm - it reckons that a molasses wash won't have any methanol present !
"....Molasses spirit can also be rectified and then used to produce vodka. In some countries it is even preferred, since it contains no methyl alcohol at all. Crop-sourced spirit contains infinitesimal amounts of methyl alcohol which have no effect on health, but some people, victims of their own overconcern, insist on molasses spirit. I should add that the presence of these tiny amounts of methyl alcohol have no effect whatever on the aroma of even unflavoured vodka. It is simply undetectable. In neutral grain or potato spirit the methyl alcohol has practically disappeared....."

"DBall" asks .. If Methanol is poison and is removed at the beginning of distillation... Question: When/how is methanol removed from wine or beer?

Brad answers ...
It's not tricky at all. Methanol is a by-product of fermentation; more methanol is produced in fruit fermentation than in grains. Brewers do not remove the methanol in beer and wine because methanol is not especially toxic at low concentrations. You are looking at between 0.4%-1% methanol in wines and brandies and smaller amounts in beers. Distillers remove almost all the methanol in most cases. Ever notice how vodka produces clean hangovers and wines (particularly reds) give you very nasty hangovers? Methanol. That, and dehydration!

Methanol is an especially nasty type of alcohol because the body tries to break it down the same way it metabolizes, or breaks down, ethanol, the type of alcohol in beer, wine and other drinks. Metabolizing ethanol produces chemicals less toxic to the body than alcohol. Unfortunately, if the same chemical action is performed on methanol the result is formic acid, lactic acid and formaldehyde.

Chronic methanol drinking will cause optical damage. The stories of moonshine causing blindness comes from U.S. prohibition times where some bootleggers used to cut moonshine with methylated spirits to increase profit.

 

[pfranco81]

Someone wanna read that for me and tell me what it says?

 

[DeathBrewer]

pft. read the bold parts.

 

[thebikingengineer]

Essentially you'd have to drink around 18 gallons of hard liquor a day (if you weight 132 lbs) to get a poisonous dose of methanol unless your fermentation or distillation techniques are really far off base from whats normal.

 

[HenryHill]

Means you won't go blind

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Essentially you'd have to drink around 18 gallons of hard liquor a day (if you weight 132 lbs)

Sounds like a challenge!!!!

 

[Kayos]

(if you weight 132 lbs)

Ummm..anyone actually weigh that much that is a male?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Ummm..anyone actually weigh that much that is a male?

I was 138 at the age of 24.... Before I started bulking up. I worked out, hit about 180. I'm now down to about 160. Want 132 pound males? Go into the Chinese and Indian communities. They aren't yet fat like us Americans....

 

[Kayos]

Want 132 pound males?

Not really. But thanks, now I know where to shop for them when I am in the market for one.

(I swear I have a wife and kids )