Black IPA with no malt flavor

[Dougal]

Hi there,

Brewed Northern Brewer's extract Black IPA (CDA) kit.

Og. Was supposed to be 1.075
Ours came in at 1.065 and had a final of 1.020.....

The beer is now kegged. Zero malt flavor, watery and dry....

I would assume that since it finished so high that there should be some detectable sweetness.

Was missing the target OG what screwed it up?
I also beefed up the hops so maybe they are overpowering the malts?

Recipe:
3.15 lbs Dark Malt extract
6 lbs Dark Malt extract
1 lb corn sugar
0.25 lbs Carafa
0.25 lbs Chocolate Malt
0.5 Caramel 80

1oz Summit (60min)
1oz Chinook (15min)
1oz Centennial (10min) added an additional oz (2oz total)
1oz Cascade (5min) added an additional oz (2oz total)
1oz Centennial (0min) added an additional oz (2oz total)
1oz Cascade (Dry hop) added an additional oz (2oz total)

Wyeast 1272 in a 2000ml yeast starter
fermented at 68F


Thanks

 

[Kingfish]

With that recipe you wouldn't get any malt flavor. The steeping grains is where your flavor comes from. Very little flavor in the dark extract only color. The sugar will dry and thin the beer also. Wyeast site does not indicate 1272 as a malt flavor yeast.

When using extract you may want to use the lightest base extract you can and then use more steeping grains.

 

[Dougal]

With that recipe you wouldn't get any malt flavor. The steeping grains is where your flavor comes from. Very little flavor in the dark extract only color. The sugar will dry and thin the beer also. Wyeast site does not indicate 1272 as a malt flavor yeast.

When using extract you may want to use the lightest base extract you can and then use more steeping grains.

I guess I misspoke, Im not looking for caramel and toffee flavor but I figure a presence of malt should be noticed. Its tasting like hoppy water, dry hoppy water. Nothing like the commercial examples that ive tasted and people compared the recipe to in the reviews. So something went wrong.

My understanding of gravity is very limited but am I correct in thinking that with a FG of 1.020 there should be plenty of residual sweetness?

 

[terrapinj]

how long has it been kegged/carbonated? carbonation will change the perception greatly

also with extract you cannot miss your OG unless your water volumes were off.

 

[brewit2it]

I guess I misspoke, Im not looking for caramel and toffee flavor but I figure a presence of malt should be noticed. Its tasting like hoppy water, dry hoppy water. Nothing like the commercial examples that ive tasted and people compared the recipe to in the reviews. So something went wrong.

My understanding of gravity is very limited but am I correct in thinking that with a FG of 1.020 there should be plenty of residual sweetness?

You are correct. I'm guessing it's the combination of the extra hops (as you already mentioned) and the Lb of sugar that is giving it the perception of very little malt. Have you brewed with sugar like that before? I made a pale ale with a lb of honey in it once and didn't care for it. Very much like you describe even though the recipe should have been fairly malty and hoppy. The funny thing was others loved that beer, but I disliked it to the point where I will never use simple sugar or honey again in my brews.

You could your beer again at a different time of day or with some flavorful spicy food. For me that seems to bring out body and malt and masks hops some.

 

[logan3825]

Dark extracts, in my experience, don't seem to ferment quite as well.

 

[Dougal]

how long has it been kegged/carbonated? carbonation will change the perception greatly

also with extract you cannot miss your OG unless your water volumes were off.

been as the proper co2 levels for a couple days now.
I was also surprised that the og was off. We were at 5 gallons exactly so I dont know what happened. Could have screwed up and gone to 6 I dont know, I'll double check the line I had made on the carboy tonight

 

[Dougal]

You are correct. I'm guessing it's the combination of the extra hops (as you already mentioned) and the Lb of sugar that is giving it the perception of very little malt. Have you brewed with sugar like that before? I made a pale ale with a lb of honey in it once and didn't care for it. Very much like you describe even though the recipe should have been fairly malty and hoppy. The funny thing was others loved that beer, but I disliked it to the point where I will never use simple sugar or honey again in my brews.

You could your beer again at a different time of day or with some flavorful spicy food. For me that seems to bring out body and malt and masks hops some.

Havent used the sugar before but looked it up and everyone said they were using it. It was all part of the kit.

 

[Kingfish]

People use sugar to increase the alcohol content of a beer. It WILL dry and thin your beer. When you are already thin with the lack of steeping grains (extract will give color but no real flavor or body) and you add sugar it is a recipe for exactly what you produced. It has no place in my boil kettle. There are some uses for it when you get into advanced brewing but I don't think those would use corn sugar.

As far as the low OG, it may simply have been a hydrometer reading error (did you correct for temp? Is it calibrated using distilled water? Did you mix your top up water VERY VERY well?)

1.020 FG is pretty common with extract brewing.

 

[Dougal]

People use sugar to increase the alcohol content of a beer. It WILL dry and thin your beer. When you are already thin with the lack of steeping grains (extract will give color but no real flavor or body) and you add sugar it is a recipe for exactly what you produced. It has no place in my boil kettle. There are some uses for it when you get into advanced brewing but I don't think those would use corn sugar.

As far as the low OG, it may simply have been a hydrometer reading error (did you correct for temp? Is it calibrated using distilled water? Did you mix your top up water VERY VERY well?)

1.020 FG is pretty common with extract brewing.

Damn. So it sounds like a recipe issue? Surprising because the kit is well reviewed.

I adjusted for temp on the hydrometer but did not mix in the top off water well. Hadnt thought of that. Didnt calibrate it either. Its my buddy's and I doubt he has checked it.

Its also possible that I over pitched. Added a pretty big yeast starter for a pretty low OG right? And that FG was taken from the bottom of the barrel after cold crashing the carboy so maybe the actual FG was lower.

 

[terrapinj]

i don't think using corn sugar = thin flavorless beer in the amounts you used, it will def decrease the body and contribute to a lower FG but it's a very common additive in IPA and IIPA recipes - including Pliny the Elder which certainly isn't thin and flavorless

only using 1lb of steeping grains shouldn't result in flavorless beer either, additionally dark extract contains a # of "malty" malts in it

from briess

Flavor: Sweet,intense malty
Ingredients: Munich Malt, Base Malt, Caramel 60L Malt, Black Malt, Water

it could be a water issue, it could also simply require a little more patience - the extra hops could mean overly hoppy but that won't equate to flavorless and thin

"proper co2" for a few days but again, how long in keg/keezer and on gas? my darker beers usually take a little longer to develop properly and come into their own, that included my imperial black ipa

 

[logan3825]

Let's back up a little bit here. There were steeping grains in the kit.

My guess is that the hops are drowning out most of your hop flavor. I easily get under 1.010 with extract on a regular basis.

A pound of sugar with that amount of extract if ok. Simple sugars are just fine in moderation. Belgian styles regularly use them. Corn sugar is best if you want to add much though.

 

[Dougal]

it could be a water issue, it could also simply require a little more patience - the extra hops could mean overly hoppy but that won't equate to flavorless and thin

"proper co2" for a few days but again, how long in keg/keezer and on gas? my darker beers usually take a little longer to develop properly and come into their own, that included my imperial black ipa

cold crashed for 5 days, kegged and hooked up co2 and let sit at 33F for another day (gas on), raised temp to 45 and let sit for 3 days. co2 seemed pretty good after the first day at 45.
That would be great if it just needs some time.

 

[terrapinj]

ah i bet it will be way better in a few weeks (not always the case for every beer) but I def noticed my kegged stout and imp black ipa got way better after a few weeks in keg. the oatmeal hemp stout tasted thin and bland for a week or 2 as well

 

[jbaysurfer]

You didn't say what PSI you charged it with? Then you let it sit at 45 with no gas on it for 3 days?

Just trying to clarify, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not carbed up quite enough.

Black IPA's are not like porters, just in case you're not super familiar with the style, it does tend to be hoppier and drier then other beers of that color/consistency.

 

[Dougal]

ah i bet it will be way better in a few weeks (not always the case for every beer) but I def noticed my kegged stout and imp black ipa got way better after a few weeks in keg. the oatmeal hemp stout tasted thin and bland for a week or 2 as well

Nice, hoping so!

 

[Dougal]

You didn't say what PSI you charged it with? Then you let it sit at 45 with no gas on it for 3 days?

Just trying to clarify, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not carbed up quite enough.

Black IPA's are not like porters, just in case you're not super familiar with the style, it does tend to be hoppier and drier then other beers of that color/consistency.

Its at about 15 psi. So 24 hours at 33F and 15psi temp bumped up to 45F and 15psi
Might be that it needs some more co2, we'll see how it goes.

Have tried a good few Black IPAs. Have been a big fan since Stone did their 11th Anniversary one that later became Self Righteous

Thanks for the help everyone

 

[Draken]

So with 91 IBUs I think you would be hard pressed to taste much malt at all. You would need to reduce the hops to bring out any residual flavors.

 

[Dougal]

So with 91 IBUs I think you would be hard pressed to taste much malt at all. You would need to reduce the hops to bring out any residual flavors.

If you read the reviews for the kit on Northern Brewer most say they either added extra hops or wish they had. I just increased the late hop additions and the dry hops. Maybe I should have just increased the dry hops to start. We'll see how its doing in a few days.

 

[anteup]

Drinking my black IPA now. It came out great. Your recipe/kit must have had steeping grains. Correct? My notes say my OG 1.075 and FG 1.025. Bottled conditioned, 3 weeks.

 

[D_Nyholm]

I'm brewing this kit this weekend and was planning on upping the hops slightly, though haven't checked my inventory to see what I can use. I am definitely going to dry hop with some more cascade though, maybe another .5 to 1 oz.

Think I should leave out the sugar? I don't need a 7+% beer and would be happy with something in the mid to low 6's if it is going to mean a better beer overall.

The only other thing I could think is if you didn't do the late malt addition? Did you dump it all in the beginning?

 

[Dougal]

Drinking my black IPA now. It came out great. Your recipe/kit must have had steeping grains. Correct? My notes say my OG 1.075 and FG 1.025. Bottled conditioned, 3 weeks.

Yes steeping grains were included and used.
I may have added too much top off water accidentally. Didnt get a chance to check last night.
Too much water and too much hops maybe whats making it too watery and too hoppy....

But hopefully I didnt and it just needs to sit in the keg a bit longer

 

[Dougal]

I'm brewing this kit this weekend and was planning on upping the hops slightly, though haven't checked my inventory to see what I can use. I am definitely going to dry hop with some more cascade though, maybe another .5 to 1 oz.

Think I should leave out the sugar? I don't need a 7+% beer and would be happy with something in the mid to low 6's if it is going to mean a better beer overall.

The only other thing I could think is if you didn't do the late malt addition? Did you dump it all in the beginning?

Stuck to the recipe on the malts. I'm really starting to think I added too much water. I'll know tonight when I look at my fill line on the carboy.
I'm not too sure about whether you would want to leave the sugar out or not. I was surprised to see it in the recipe because I hadnt used it before (have brewed mostly stouts) but found out that its a regular ingredient in IPAs, gives them the dry finish and keeps the beer more hop forward.

 

[logan3825]

Here is what my recipe for black IPA.

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 lb LME Golden Light (Briess)
2.00 lb DME Golden Light (Briess)
0.50 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose)

0.50 lb Black Malt
0.50 lb CaraMunich II

1.50 oz Centennial [8.00 %] (60 min)

0.75 oz Cascade [4.7 %] (15 min)
0.75 oz Amarillo Gold [7.1 %] (15 min)

0.75 oz Cascade [4.7 %] (5 min)
0.75 oz Amarillo Gold [7.1 %] (5 min)

0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [7.1 %] (2 min)
0.50 oz Cascade [4.7 %] (2 min)

1 Pkgs Safale US-05

59.5 IBU
1.064 OG
1.010 FG

Plenty dark and not to thick. I avoid dark extract and only use Amber for stouts or porters. I find dark doesn't ferment as well as other extracts.

 

[D_Nyholm]

Brewed this up tonight and added an extra .50 oz centennial at flameout. I am also going to dry hop with another ounce of cascade. My water seems to really mute hops so I am hoping this will bring a lot of flavor and aroma. My kegerator died so i am going to have to bottle this one so I can't rely on being able to dry hop in the keg for a little extra when needed.

 

[D_Nyholm]

Just a quick update on mine. I dropped in the dry hops and had a taste of my gravity sample. It sure tasted good to me! Lots or flavor and aroma and definitely some malt flavor. Gravity showed 1.018 when I dry hopped. We will see what happens in 4 weeks when it is done bottle conditioning.