BJCP exam reservation practices (a rant)

[Bobby_M]

Another thread got me thinking about this and thought I'd ask what you guys thought.

First I wanted to mention that I am aware that BJCP is moving towards an online "written" portion. Conceivably, this will weed out a lot of people that aren't quite ready or don't have the commitment level. This should reduce the demand for in-person seats during the tasting test.

With that said, it's been extremely frustrating finding an open seat at an exam site. For the most part, the exams take place at locations because either a homebrew shop is running a study course or a location chosen by a homebrew club where a proctor was convinced to come out.

My concern and issue is that once a location is booked, the BJCP wants the reservations to be first come, first served. To me, what that means is that it gets posted on the website, a contact person is listed, and if there are 6 out of 12 seats still open, it should be filled with Joe Homebrewer from the next state over or a club member just the same.

In reality, what clubs are doing is holding all of the seats as "pre-reserved" just about all the way up to the exam date and then finally opening them up to the general public when they are good and convinced it won't be filled locally.

I see two solutions to the problem.

1. Concede that a club that organizes an exam has the earned right to give priority reservation to the club members. I have no problem with this but BJCP should define a window of time. If the exam is to take place in one year, giving the club members two months to reserve is completely fair in my opinion.
2. Have all reservations handled by an unbiased 3rd party. The BJCP could even take deposits to hold the reservations right on the website and act as an escrow account. A lot of the money goes to them eventually anyway after proctor expenses.

Thoughts?

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

I am currently suffering through this exact problem, my home club is fairly new and not ready to sponsor an exam. Of the three exams that are scheduled within the next 12 months, and that are within a 3 hour drive of me, I have been told by all of them that "seats are reserved for club members, but we'll let you know if something opens up. We doubt that all the people doing the study class will actually take the exam".

The exam reservations should be done by a 3rd party, first come first served. There should be a designated window of signups prior to the exam, for instance signups open 6 months prior to the exam and close after 90 days. If a club is hosting the event, they should be able to generate enough interest in their club members to get them to sign up as soon as registrations open, just like anyone else that is highly interested. We don't all have the luxury of being part of, or near, a club that is at the level of hosting a BJCP exam and we should not have to suffer because of it.

I think its totally absurd that I've been told by three exam administrators that their seats are for their club members (who they have no actual commitment of even taking the exam from) first, then I'll have a chance to signup if they don't fill the roster.

 

[passedpawn]

join the club.

 

[Beerrific]

The problem with a lot of exam sites (as you all know) is that they have to book them a year in advance. A lot of people sign up 9-12 months out and at about 1-2 months they drop out. This makes an administrator want to pull their hair out. Then they have to fill the spot with unprepared people or leave the seat empty. So I think a lot are making their own requirements like you have to do the exam prep before you get the spot or they are giving first dips to people they know in their clubs so they can keep up with them and make sure they are seated for the test.

Administrating a test is a lot work if you count the 12 months or so you have to keep track of 12+ people and if you are doing a prep class that is a lot of work too. I can kind of understand why an administrator would want their club in first. They are doing a lot of work and want their club to benefit. But on the other hand, if they are giving the spot away to someone who is not prepared instead of someone who is prepared, well, they are d!cks.

There are a lot of problems with the BJCP and 1,000 solutions to every problem. Biggest would probably be the number of people wanting to take the exam FAR outnumbers those willing to grade due largely to the amount of time it takes to grade an exam. The new online "pre" test will help a lot. But I feel there will still be a back log at the required subsequent tasting exam. But, that tasting exam will be easier to grade than the entire current written exam and should help open more spots for more people.

I would try to get your name on the list and keep bugging the person (in a nice way). Let them know you are prepared and ready. if you can be buddy-buddy with them and demonstrate that you will do well, they will be more likely to give you the spot vs. some guy in the club that may pass. A lot of people drop out as they have to be booked so far in advance.

 

[AmandaK]

I registered for an exam in December in KC, the guy organizing it was super nice and put me on the list. I know he is an officer in his local club, and I don't even live in the same state, but I had no problems getting a seat.

 

[remilard]

Are they really holding them without having people signed up? What happened for me is that I asked at a club meeting how much interest there was. I then emailed and got a date. I then emailed the club members who had expressed interest. About 2 weeks later the exam was listed online and I had 9 or so people signed up from my club and now have another 8 people signed up or on the waiting list that are not in my club. So I didn't "hold" any seats for the club but most of them went to the club anyway because I gave them the date when I had it which was before the exam was listed.

The best way to get into an exam is to sponsor one yourself. You have to find someone to administer (they don't have to be of a particular rank) and two to proctor (National or higher), but that should be too hard. Lots of people who are not BJCP members put on their own exams and sometimes pay people to travel to administer and proctor it. This is how you get judges in the middle of nowhere where their aren't a lot of judges actively trying to get more judges like some of the bigger cities have.

The second best way is to know people that put on exams. The third best way is to get on a waiting list and be ready to go when people inevitable drop at the last minute. The typical exam has a waiting list and then open seats on exam days. It sucks but even though you know some people will flake at the last minute, it's hard to know who will do that. My plan to deal with that is to require the exam fee up front when the class starts, non-refundable. $50 isn't that much of a disincentive though.

When the new system is live this will be a non-issue since the essay exam will only be fore people going for National and Master. So I guess option 4 is wait (hopefully not more than a year) and get in through the new system.

I know it is frustrating. I flew from KC to Portland, OR to take mine. My wife drove from KC to Wichita to take hers. KC is a fairly large city but when my exam takes place in December I will be Master and there won't have been an exam within a 2 hour drive since before I first took the exam.

 

[Bobby_M]

The responses I got from two different coordinators made it rather obvious that they are holding spots for club members otherwise they would simply say "all spots are currently booked". I agree that in the current system, hosting one is the best way to get a spot in advance. What I'm really ranting about is if the BJCP policy is first come, first served, reservations should happen quickly in the inner circles and then it should be opened up to the public.

All the comps are practically begging for BJCP certified judges so the system has to be as efficient as possible to make that happen. I'm glad the new exam system is looking to address that.

 

[remilard]

The responses I got from two different coordinators made it rather obvious that they are holding spots for club members otherwise they would simply say "all spots are currently booked". I agree that in the current system, hosting one is the best way to get a spot in advance. What I'm really ranting about is if the BJCP policy is first come, first served, reservations should happen quickly in the inner circles and then it should be opened up to the public.

Interesting. I wouldn't do it that way, but I guess not much can be done about it.

I think you should looking into organizing one with your club. In NJ it shouldn't be hard for you to track down people to administer and proctor.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I had the exact same experience. I'm just going to wait (option 4) until they go to the new system. It will be interesting to see what the attitude is towards these new half-assed-quasi-beer-judges-in-title-only.

 

[Teromous]

Conspiracy for you to consider: ...club sponsors BJCP classes and tests, club now has certified members, club seats local homebrew competitions as a majority...then club members take the prizes. Now that doesn't mean that they set other up to fail necessarily, but the judges could train members to make styles that are pleasing to their own palate...members win!

 

[Spartan1979]

Conspiracy for you to consider: ...club sponsors BJCP classes and tests, club now has certified members, club seats local homebrew competitions as a majority...then club members take the prizes. Now that doesn't mean that they set other up to fail necessarily, but the judges could train members to make styles that are pleasing to their own palate...members win!

Just a bit paranoid.

 

[Nightbiker]

Originally Posted by Teromous
Conspiracy for you to consider: ...club sponsors BJCP classes and tests, club now has certified members, club seats local homebrew competitions as a majority...then club members take the prizes. Now that doesn't mean that they set other up to fail necessarily, but the judges could train members to make styles that are pleasing to their own palate...members win!

Yeah, sorry but I think you're over-thinking this one. It makes sense for clubs that are sponsoring the class/test to reserve for their own first -after all, THEY are the ones sponsoring it.
But in any case, I've never been hung up on brewing for awards (have never bothered to enter a competition even though several have been local to me) -I brew beer for me, and I brew what I like when I like it and how I like it (grin). Maybe one day I'll enter one. Dunno, its so low on my list of things to worry about...
I WOULD like to take the judges' course one day, though -and me being the way I am, if I take the class, I will certainly sit the exam. Would I also judge? Doubt it. Like I said: Competitions aren't my thing.

 

[Teromous]

I think you guys are overthinking my conspiracy. I threw it out there because another guy posted that a majority of club members won awards in his local area during the AHA NHC. Put another log on the fire, cook me up some bacon and some beans...

 

[olllllo]

The earliest schedule-able test is August 2012. We have that for PHX.

 

[olllllo]

So Nightbiker, the point is, you'd have to know BJCP certification is not your thing 15 months from now at a minimum.

 

[remilard]

I think you guys are overthinking my conspiracy. I threw it out there because another guy posted that a majority of club members won awards in his local area during the AHA NHC. Put another log on the fire, cook me up some bacon and some beans...

That other dude is nuts too. I wouldn't align myself with his conspiracies.

 

[olllllo]

Re: Conspiracy.

Wouldn't it just be easier and less exhausting to bottle commercial beer?

 

[bob1852]

The earliest schedule-able test is August 2012. We have that for PHX.

So Nightbiker, the point is, you'd have to know BJCP certification is not your thing 15 months from now at a minimum.

Is 15 months enough time to get to a testable point? I've been interested in moving toward BJCP certifications, but haven't looked into it a much.

A Phoenix testing area may change that...

 

[olllllo]

Is 15 months enough time to get to a testable point? I've been interested in moving toward BJCP certifications, but haven't looked into it a much.

A Phoenix testing area may change that...

15 months is too much time. You should be able to prepare in 2-3 months.

 

[theschick]

15 months is too much time.

Too much time to study, nonsense. While it may not be fun waiting for the exam, just gives you the opportunity to know the material inside an out. Shoot for a national ranking score or better! I'm luckily enough to have a spot for a test in December, and trying to take advantage of it. I'm not counting on the new tests to be ready, so I want to be prepared to take the real exam.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

As of a month or two ago, the last scheduled exam in Florida is October 2012...already full.

 

[olllllo]

Too much time to study, nonsense. While it may not be fun waiting for the exam, just gives you the opportunity to know the material inside an out. Shoot for a national ranking score or better! I'm luckily enough to have a spot for a test in December, and trying to take advantage of it. I'm not counting on the new tests to be ready, so I want to be prepared to take the real exam.

There is no doubt that you can learn things over the course of 15 months but the thing is the tastings should be done in closer proximity to the test. You usually taste 15 or so of the classic styles with perhaps 2 or 3 examples of each. The Belgian categories alone are going to set you back $40 or $50. You need to be doing this with a group of people. not everyone is going to have that commitment. The tasting should be done in conjunction with the style discussions. It would be challenging to compare and contrast a style you did 12 months ago with one you did 3 months ago.

Anyways, I base my opinion on experience and passing the exam.

 

[Homercidal]

I agree with Bobby. I wanted to take the exam over a year ago and a glance at the schedule made me give up on the spot. If I had a REAL reason to become certified, like judging at competitions, or enjoying beer more, or understanding my palate so I could become a better brewer, then maybe I should have stuck with it.

But seeing the list of exams, and where they were, and they were ALL filled, just made me say F-it.

I understand the reasons why, but it still sucks. I am confident that eventually there will be enough qualified people floating around to alleviate the problem, but who knows how long that will take.

 

[Beerrific]

I agree with Bobby. I wanted to take the exam over a year ago and a glance at the schedule made me give up on the spot.

...

You know they are changing the way they give the exam for the first time, right? Keep up on the studying and you should be ready to take it as soon as it becomes available.
http://www.bjcp.org/docs/newexam.pdf

 

[Nightbiker]

So Nightbiker, the point is, you'd have to know BJCP certification is not your thing 15 months from now at a minimum.

Yeah, I can see your point. I wonder though, WHY are the tests so limited on seating? I've taken a number of board certification (state-level) tests for my career, and they weren't (ever) limited to a certain number -some of these tests had well over a hundred of us in one seating. Now, I know that would be a bit more difficult when you have to sample various brews, but come on, you can't tell me that it can't be done. There is clearly a need (and I doubt we are talking hundreds of participants).
Just how big ARE these test seatings?

 

[remilard]

Yeah, I can see your point. I wonder though, WHY are the tests so limited on seating? I've taken a number of board certification (state-level) tests for my career, and they weren't (ever) limited to a certain number -some of these tests had well over a hundred of us in one seating. Now, I know that would be a bit more difficult when you have to sample various brews, but come on, you can't tell me that it can't be done. There is clearly a need (and I doubt we are talking hundreds of participants).
Just how big ARE these test seatings?

They are time consuming to grade. I had to take some professional essay exams too which had unlimited seating and were graded faster. The difference there is all of the administrative work was done by a paid staff, which the BJCP doesn't have, and people were enticed to grade because the grading was done in a centralized location, generally a resort, and the grader's expenses were paid (and they usually get the time off paid from their employer). The BJCP doesn't have the resources to do that either. Big differences.

Were your tests written answer or T/F MC? I ask because if they were the latter, you may be underestimating how labor intensive written answer exams are to grade. The BJCP is working on a new exam that is T/F MC and automatically graded that along with a tasting exam is used for the Recognized and Certified levels. The traditional essay exam will be used for National and Master. The new exam (and the tasting component) will not have any limits.

It really can't be done (unlimited seatings) under the current system. There are people spending hundreds of hours a year grading.

 

[Nightbiker]

depending on the test, some were written (essay) but some were given in such manner to allow computers to score them (bubble or even on screen -of course, those would be very fast and the least labor intensive)
I hadn't considered the amount of work though -and seeing that, it makes much more sense to me.
Perhaps one day I'll get the classes and actually sit the test. Its something to think about, anyway.

 

[Bobby_M]

The BJCP could have more resources if they changed the model. I mean, it's $50 to take the exam but how many people would pay $100 to have the scheduling and grading much easier and faster? I don't know, there are over 1500 people dropping a grand easily just to go to the NHC every year.

 

[Beerrific]

The BJCP could have more resources if they changed the model. I mean, it's $50 to take the exam but how many people would pay $100 to have the scheduling and grading much easier and faster? I don't know, there are over 1500 people dropping a grand easily just to go to the NHC every year.

I am not sure more money would help get the exams graded any faster unless you were able to pay someone full time to do it. I would guess that 90% of the delays are due to the graders real life getting in the way. Money can't help that.

But, they are investing some money in the online multiple choice exam which should help a lot.

 

[Bobby_M]

I thought money could fix just about everything. I do like the direction of online exams because at least the expense is temporary and the effect is long term.