BJCP and Diacetyl

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KarmaCitra

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So I just got my results back for a local Homebrew competition (BJCP sanctioned) and my Rye Blonde scored a 21 [emoji15]

The main point in both scoresheets was a very strong diacetyl presence, to the point that one of the judges stated "either I'm insensitive to diacetyl, or it has precursor and is releases as it warms".

My question is, as I sip this same beer, could I be completely insensitive to diacetyl? I am trying my hardest to pick up the buttered popcorn character, and can't seem to get it.

To give you a background on the fermentation of this one, I ended up pitching a packet of US-05 as insurance on top of an old pack of WLP-001, OG was 1.054, FG was 1.008 (2.5 week fermentation at 65° with a week cold crash at 34°).

Thanks for the input!
 
How did you boil go? What is your set up? When did you pitch the US05, was it the same time as the wlp001 or later due to a stuck fermentation?
 
Brew day went as it usually does, nice rolling boil. I pitched the US-05 the day after I pitched the WLP001
 
Did other judges comment on it as well or was it just one judge? Could be personal perspective or inexperience on the judges part. I'm a judge myself but you should always take it with a grain of salt unless you had multiple comments from other judges confirming diacetyl.
 
Yeah, the WLP001 was old (only 2 weeks until expiration). I was in a pinch for yeast (didn't have time to make a starter, it was more of an impromptu brew day). I ended up pitching two packs of the WLP001, but when I did the calc, it wasn't going to be enough.
 
Was the rye malted or flaked? Did other judges confirm the flavor? Right now I'm leaning towards an inexperienced judge confusing a malty profile with diacetyl or at the most a yeast issue. But you finished a little dry for your recipe but that shouldnt be a big issue here.
 
It was malted rye. There were two judges that mentioned diacetyl. Isn't it true, however, that BJCP judges have to calibrate on results to a certain degree? I'm just hoping I'm not blind to diacetyl!
 
It wouldn't surprise me if there was a yeast issue. I wasn't too thrilled to combine yeasts the way I did.
 
Sort of a stretch but I believe diacetyl can also be an indication of an infection. If you bottle from a keg it could be possible the bottles for the contest got infected but the samples you pull from the keg are not.

If the bottles for the contest got warm in transit that might change things too, maybe bottle some let them get warm for a while then chill and try again.

Sometime when I read the score sheets I wonder if beers gets switched as the descriptions don't seem to match other judges or does not sound like my beer.

On the yeast front you gave the yeast enough time to clean up, but it helps to bump the temp toward the end of active fermentation(day 4 or 5) to push the yeast and keep them active.

Your attenuation does not look too unreasonable for 001/us-5 but 85% is pretty high for a first pitch. Did you mash low?
 
I mashed at 148°. Good thing is, I still have some of the bottles that I did extra when I bottled for the competition. I'm going to try one of those cold right out of the fridge then warmed up and cooled again, as you suggested. If that reveals diacetyl, would that mean that the beer has diacetyl and I just don't detect it cold?
 
I believe if warming then cooling brings it out then that could mean you have the precursors but not actual diacetyl. I think it needs to get up around 160 for it to happen though or at least that is how you test for it.

If it becomes noticeable after a few days sitting at room temp I would think that could be wild yeast or something. I suppose if the 001/us-05 got active again from warming it could possible leave some too if cooled again before it cleaned it up. Any comments about over carbonation?

edit: If there is someone you know that says "I hate buttery chardonnay" maybe ask them to taste your beer. Chances are they more sensitive to diacetyl and may be able to pick it up at a level you might not be able to.
 
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KarmaCitra said:
So I just got my results back for a local Homebrew competition (BJCP sanctioned) and my Rye Blonde scored a 21 [emoji15]

The main point in both scoresheets was a very strong diacetyl presence, to the point that one of the judges stated "either I'm insensitive to diacetyl, or it has precursor and is releases as it warms".

My question is, as I sip this same beer, could I be completely insensitive to diacetyl? I am trying my hardest to pick up the buttered popcorn character, and can't seem to get it.

To give you a background on the fermentation of this one, I ended up pitching a packet of US-05 as insurance on top of an old pack of WLP-001, OG was 1.054, FG was 1.008 (2.5 week fermentation at 65° with a week cold crash at 34°).

Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...

Lots of judges claim to perceive things that don't exist. I'd have others taste the beer to see if they pick up anything unusual. Don't be surprised if they can't detect it, if it doesn't exist, which with US-05, it shouldn't.
 
ba-brewer said:
I believe if warming then cooling brings it out then that could mean you have the precursors but not actual diacetyl. I think it needs to get up around 160 for it to happen though or at least that is how you test for it.

If it becomes noticeable after a few days sitting at room temp I would think that could be wild yeast or something. I suppose if the 001/us-05 got active again from warming it could possible leave some too if cooled again before it cleaned it up. Any comments about over carbonation?

edit: If there is someone you know that says "I hate buttery chardonnay" maybe ask them to taste your beer. Chances are they more sensitive to diacetyl and may be able to pick it up at a level you might not be able to.
Click to expand...
No comments on over carbonation, although when I opened one if the bottles, it was incredibly effervescent.

As far as getting others to try it, is diacetyl truly a "smack you in the face" flavor of buttered popcorn, or can it be mistaken for another flavor? I'm going to get some people to try it and not tell them about it to see if they pick it up.
 
As far as I have smelled it, it is "a smack on your face" if the concentration is well above the taste threshold. But small amounts will be different. I lean towards contaminated bottle/s. Or maybe precursors that turned to diacetyl during the transit/storage before competition. I have noticed that certain bacteria can produce lots of diacetyl in vessels that are left open with some wort inside. The fact that us-05 is generally not one of those high diacetyl strains, I lean towards a contamination. But it is true that taste thresholds among people will differ. In addition to annoying butterscotch smell and taste, high amounts of diacetyl makes the beer feel slick and oily in your hands. It is also a good idea to ask some other people to taste it. Somebody who thinks he is able to smell/taste it.
 
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I've got to convey this one more time, in bolder language:

Don't assume judges are right if you think they are wrong. If you think they are wrong, they probably are.

I myself am BJCP Certified, and I respect the BJCP for what it is. However, I don't respect crappy judges, and believe me -- there are a LOT of crappy judges. Probably 3 out of 5 or thereabouts. Seriously. Also it is totally possible for a judge to have a bad day. The thing I hate most about competitions is where you receive two scoresheets but they are virtually carbon copies of one another because one judge outranks the other and tells the less experienced guy what he is tasting and he writes it all down on his scoresheet also. I HATE THAT. That is SO wrong. So, look out for that too. That's how we get ourselves into this situation so often where people say "both judges agreed that my beer sucked" but then you enter the same beer into another competition later and it scores in the 30s or even the 40s, SAME BEER.

Enter more comps. Talk to more people. And, throw bad scoresheets in the recycle bin. They happen, a LOT, more often than not even. It's the sad reality.
 
dmtaylor said:
I've got to convey this one more time, in bolder language:

Don't assume judges are right if you think they are wrong. If you think they are wrong, they probably are.

I myself am BJCP Certified, and I respect the BJCP for what it is. However, I don't respect crappy judges, and believe me -- there are a LOT of crappy judges. Probably 3 out of 5 or thereabouts. Seriously. Also it is totally possible for a judge to have a bad day. The thing I hate most about competitions is where you receive two scoresheets but they are virtually carbon copies of one another because one judge outranks the other and tells the less experienced guy what he is tasting and he writes it all down on his scoresheet also. I HATE THAT. That is SO wrong. So, look out for that too. That's how we get ourselves into this situation so often where people say "both judges agreed that my beer sucked" but then you enter the same beer into another competition later and it scores in the 30s or even the 40s, SAME BEER.

Enter more comps. Talk to more people. And, throw bad scoresheets in the recycle bin. They happen, a LOT, more often than not even. It's the sad reality.
Click to expand...
Interestingly enough, I submitted an IPA into this same exact competition and made it to the mini Best Of Show, yet a few weeks prior, that beer scored a 25 with major flaws. Interesting to say the least.

Come to think of it, one of the sheets was judged by a master judge, while the other was certified. So perhaps some of the influence you described happened? Who knows.
 
Without tasting your beer, there would be no way for me to determine if it has diacetyl.

I can tell you however that it is definitely possible that you cannot detect diacetyl as, when I took my BJCP prep class, the instructor brought in a "spike" kit were he dosed samples with specific off flavors (diacetly, DMS, acetaldehyde etc.) and passed them around for everyone to try. When the diacetly sample came around I could smell it from a mile away but the guy next to me didn't pick up a thing.
 
KarmaCitra said:
No comments on over carbonation, although when I opened one if the bottles, it was incredibly effervescent.

As far as getting others to try it, is diacetyl truly a "smack you in the face" flavor of buttered popcorn, or can it be mistaken for another flavor? I'm going to get some people to try it and not tell them about it to see if they pick it up.
Click to expand...

One of my first lagers I believe had a diacetyl problem, I used the budvar yeast and it was slow to start then dropped like a rock before I raised the temp. It had a strong caramel like flavor, not buttery.

As you have a decent amount rye in your beer and it can change the mouthfeel which is the other part of diacetyl (oily slick feel). If you entered in the blonde category without identifying it's inclusion maybe that confused them. If you entered in wheat/rye then they should know to expect it.
 
ba-brewer said:
Your recipe looks pretty good, but it seems slightly bigger and hoppier than a standard BJCP blonde. Did you get any comments about being too hoppy?

I like my blondes on the hoppy side but they do not always do so well in contests because of it.
Click to expand...
Strangely enough, no commentary on the hops!
 
KarmaCitra said:
Interestingly enough, I submitted an IPA into this same exact competition and made it to the mini Best Of Show, yet a few weeks prior, that beer scored a 25 with major flaws. Interesting to say the least.
Click to expand...
The fact is, everyone has different taste. What tastes good to one drinker may be undrinkable to someone else. That's why beer that doesn't taste like much of anything is so popular. I haven't seen anyone else ask this to the OP: How does the beer taste to you?
Do you like it or not? Why and what do you like/dislike about it. If you offer the beer to anyone, do they want another?
Competitions have their place, but my experience has been the chance of getting some useful feedback is less than 50/50. My 2 cents: put some time in on re-brews and try to really perfect a beer to suit your taste. If you enter a competition and someone else doesn't like it, and you can't find the same faults that they do, just accept that maybe the way you perceive taste is different and then brew what you like.
 
madscientist451 said:
The fact is, everyone has different taste. What tastes good to one drinker may be undrinkable to someone else. That's why beer that doesn't taste like much of anything is so popular. I haven't seen anyone else ask this to the OP: How does the beer taste to you?
Do you like it or not? Why and what do you like/dislike about it. If you offer the beer to anyone, do they want another?
Competitions have their place, but my experience has been the chance of getting some useful feedback is less than 50/50. My 2 cents: put some time in on re-brews and try to really perfect a beer to suit your taste. If you enter a competition and someone else doesn't like it, and you can't find the same faults that they do, just accept that maybe the way you perceive taste is different and then brew what you like.
Click to expand...
Very good point! I personally like the flavor of it, so perhaps that's what's happening here.
 
Update: so I opened one of the bottles I had submitted (bottled extra), and I do in fact get a very strong butter aroma. But the same exact beer from the keg, I am not getting any of that. What gives?
 
It tastes like a completely different beer too. Could diacetyl be caused by some sort of bottling error?
 
KarmaCitra said:
Update: so I opened one of the bottles I had submitted (bottled extra), and I do in fact get a very strong butter aroma. But the same exact beer from the keg, I am not getting any of that. What gives?
Click to expand...

Hmm! Well! This is indeed interesting. How did you bottle? Did you use priming sugar, or did you bottle from the keg? Yeast eats diacetyl. If you have a little yeast in the keg, but none in the bottles, that could explain the difference. Could also be a temperature differential thing? Are the bottles at cellar temperature, or room temperature, or are they refrigerated cold? In any case, warming up diacetyl should help the yeast eat it eventually with age. But, if the yeast is gone and/or dead, the diacetyl could be locked in for a very long time or forever.

Hmm.
 
I bottled using a beer gun straight from the keg. The bottles were chiled overnight, sanitized right before bottling. Could it be possible that I didn't purge enough oxygen from the bottles?
 
Smellyglove said:
Do you have some descriptors in how it tastes like a completely different beer?
Click to expand...
The one that was bottled has a more pronounced bite to it, and I'm getting the diacetyl almost immediately on the nose. The one from the keg is much smoother and just malty.
 
I would take apart the beer gun along with the disconnects and give it all a thorough cleaning.

Where did you get the bottles and what did you do for cleaning?

If the bottled beer is more carbonated then the kegged beer then something is going on in your bottle. If you still have some bottles left leave some at room for a while and see if the flavor gets better or worst. Better maybe the original yeast was not done when kegged and restarted in the bottle then got turned off before cleanup. Worst it is something else working in the bottle.
 
ba-brewer said:
I would take apart the beer gun along with the disconnects and give it all a thorough cleaning.

Where did you get the bottles and what did you do for cleaning?

If the bottled beer is more carbonated then the kegged beer then something is going on in your bottle. If you still have some bottles left leave some at room for a while and see if the flavor gets better or worst. Better maybe the original yeast was not done when kegged and restarted in the bottle then got turned off before cleanup. Worst it is something else working in the bottle.
Click to expand...

I'll admit, I haven't been the most diligent in cleaning the beer gun. Heavy rinse with hot water, then sanitizer through it before bottling. I'll try to take it apart.

Bottles are ones I recycled and soaked them in hot OxiClean. Then heavy rinse with clean water.

I'll try to leave one at room temp and see what happens.
 
KarmaCitra said:
So perhaps when I bottled, I didn't get any yeast into the bottles, but the keg would potentially still have some?
Click to expand...

No way. The yeast "clean up" thing occurs within about 24 hours of the beer reaching FG. It will not happen in the keg at cold temperatures, or in the bottles.

Pediococcus is an infection that is often present in beerlines and equipment- and causes diacetyl. It's got to be the beergun.
 

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