Bitterness at finish

[ColoradoJon]

Hi folks -

I've been brewing the same beer for quite awhile now and have been slowly dialing it in with help from HBT. It is a pale lager, Harp clone. My most recent batch was excellent but I did notice a hoppy, bitter aftertaste on the last batch. Strong hop flavor to start, but a slight orange peel bitterness after the finish. The beer is very good otherwise.

I'm trying to nail it down and believe it is either SO4/CL ratio or simply the amount and type of hops. Here is the base recipe:

9 lbs. Pale ale malt
10.4 oz. Crystal 10L
2 oz. Mt. Hood @ 60
.5 oz. Hallertauer/.5 oz. Saaz @ 15
.25 oz. Hallertauer/.25 oz. Saaz @ 5
Wyeast 2206 Bavarian lager yeast
Mash at 152 F.

Finished water profile:
67 CA
6.4 Mg
16.2 sodium
36.6 Sulfate
30.9 Chloride

Do you think the SO4/CL ratio could be the problem?

 

[trentm]

Maybe not the ratio but the SO4. AJ has pointed out that noble hops and SO4 do not play well together. I've found that to be true. Maybe drop the SO4 or bring it down to 10-15 ppm. Or choose a different hop. Mt. Hood may be OK, the Hallertauer and Saaz could be the issue.

 

[Xpertskir]

that water profile is not going to accentuate anything, it's very neutral and pretty soft.

Im too lazy to plug that in to see your projected IBU's, provide that and I'll comment on it.

Otherwise mash pH or fermentation flaws are going to me my guess for astringency or some other off flavor in the finish.

Could also be chlorophenols, but I'm assuming if you are smart enough to worry about your water profile you are smart enough to brew with water that lacks chlorine or chloramine.

 

[m00ps]

I think its the 2oz of hops at 60min. Thats more bittering hops than Id use for an IPA. For a lager, id either to 1/2oz of something thats close to 10% (like mt hood) or just stick with noble hops which are around 5%

 

[Iseneye]

Maybe not the ratio but the SO4. AJ has pointed out that noble hops and SO4 do not play well together. I've found that to be true. Maybe drop the SO4 or bring it down to 10-15 ppm. Or choose a different hop. Mt. Hood may be OK, the Hallertauer and Saaz could be the issue.

Would 30ppm of S04 be noticeable? Water still looks softish to me.

 

[trentm]

Well, I'm not the expert here just going by experience with Strong Belgian Pales which I think are similar to lagars. I was using a similar profile, then lowered the SO4 and raised the Cl. So I'm using 15 ppm SO4 and 60 ppm Cl. Made a real difference. I'm using only noble hops.

 

[ColoradoJon]

Hey, thanks for the replies!

The water I'm using is mountain well water (Colorado) and is rather soft to begin with. I do have to use acid to bring down the pH and bicarbonates, and the water is a bit alkaline (~ pH 8). No chlorine or chloramine and very little else according to the water report. Bicarbonate is a bit high at 145.

I like the idea of dropping the SO4 and I had not heard that it doesn't play well with noble hops. To me the flavor is a bitter hop flavor. I also thought 2 oz. of bittering hops was a bit much but this recipe is a Harp clone from Austin Homebrew and figured that it would be close enough.

I think I will try dropping the SO4 first, then brew a second batch with less bittering hops if that doesn't help.

Thanks!!

Edit - sorry, I don't have the IBUs at the moment, I'll post when I get home from work

 

[ColoradoJon]

The IBU is 48 as reported by Beersmith. The commercial Harp lager is rated 47 IBU.

 

[mabrungard]

Hey, thanks for the replies!

The water I'm using is mountain well water (Colorado) and is rather soft to begin with. I do have to use acid to bring down the pH and bicarbonates, and the water is a bit alkaline (~ pH 8). No chlorine or chloramine and very little else according to the water report. Bicarbonate is a bit high at 145.

I like the idea of dropping the SO4 and I had not heard that it doesn't play well with noble hops. To me the flavor is a bitter hop flavor. I also thought 2 oz. of bittering hops was a bit much but this recipe is a Harp clone from Austin Homebrew and figured that it would be close enough.

I think I will try dropping the SO4 first, then brew a second batch with less bittering hops if that doesn't help.

That sulfate level should not be a problem at all for a relatively balanced beer. I don't buy the sulfate/noble hops clash at all. There are plenty of award winning beers made with more sulfate than what you have and noble hops and they are fine. Sulfate at that level is not going to contribute much in the way of flavor and its drying effect should be low.

I'm assuming you are acidifying your water properly, including the sparging water? That's where I would suspect harshness could come from. Of course, if your bittering level is too high, that could create some off perceptions too.

 

[trentm]

T There are plenty of award winning beers made with more sulfate than what you have and noble hops and they are fine.

I'm sure that's true. You can find 2 here in Catagory 16 and 18 that were brewed with noble hops and very low sulfate: http://www.in.gov/statefair/fair/files/Brewers_Cup_2015_Final_Results.pdf. They are the ones that place 1st.

I really feel like a prick posting this because most of what I know about water, I learned from you. One of those is adjust brewing water for the flavors you like and I agree. I also like pleasing others. At least four judges and a number more in the mini-BOS really liked these. Late last year I lowered the sulfate in all my Belgian styles (they all include noble hops) and have had my best year yet on the comp circuit.

ColoradoJon; It's often been suggested here to add a little sulfate or chloride to a finished beer to see if you like the flavor. You might try brewing your beer with lower sulfate then add a little to the finished beer and see which you prefer.

 

[ColoradoJon]

That sulfate level should not be a problem at all for a relatively balanced beer. I don't buy the sulfate/noble hops clash at all. There are plenty of award winning beers made with more sulfate than what you have and noble hops and they are fine. Sulfate at that level is not going to contribute much in the way of flavor and its drying effect should be low.

I'm assuming you are acidifying your water properly, including the sparging water? That's where I would suspect harshness could come from. Of course, if your bittering level is too high, that could create some off perceptions too.

I am using phosphoric acid (food grade @ 85%) in both the mash and sparge. 2.5ml in the mash, added at room temperature before heating along with all other mash additions, and 2.6ml in the sparge water. I am using your spreadsheet (donation version) to calculate my additions.

I admit that I am not very experienced with water adjustments and have been making small adjustments, one at a time, in order to find the right balance. Each time my beer improves but at this point I'm not sure if I have more work to do on the water chemistry or if the recipe itself is the issue.

trentm - I was wondering if it was possible to adjust the sulfate/chloride after finishing. It makes sense that you can and if this yields good results I will probably give it a shot.

Thanks for the replies!

 

[ajdelange]

Would 30ppm of S04 be noticeable?

It would be to me but perhaps not to you. I went to considerable trouble to install an RO system because my well water comes in pretty consistently at about 27 mg/L SO4 and that was ruining my Saaz based beers. You, OTOH, might find that level quite tolerable.

 

[ajdelange]

I don't buy the sulfate/noble hops clash at all. There are plenty of award winning beers made with more sulfate than what you have and noble hops and they are fine.

That's an opinion which is at variance with the experiences of people like Gordon Strong, trentm (#2) and A.J. deLange. We really need to understand that personal preference is at play here and that tastes vary.

 

[trentm]

trentm - I was wondering if it was possible to adjust the sulfate/chloride after finishing. It makes sense that you can and if this yields good results I will probably give it a shot.

I haven't actually tried it myself but I understand it's a good way to dial in your flavor additions (credit-ajdelange). If possible, it would be nice to make a known dilution of the mineral of interest and add a measured volume to the finished beer. That way you could quantify the amount you added and scale that to your next brew. But just adding a small amount would give you an idea of how you would perceive an increase of, in this case, sulfate. I also know a guy (a professional brewer) who dials in his aroma/flavor hop profile in this manner.

 

[ajdelange]

...it's a good way to dial in your flavor additions (credit-ajdelange).

No, no, no! Credit Colin Kaminsky. I got it from him.

 

[ColoradoJon]

So tonight my wife and I sat down and sampled more of this brew and she mentioned to me that the bitter flavor is just like raw hop flavor, like eating hops right out of the bag but not as strong. It is definitely a raw hop flavor. Something is definitely accentuating the flavor hops, or I'm using too much maybe? I'm using pellet hops, maybe try whole?

trentm - you mentioned a brewer associate that adjusts flavor hops at finish, I might try that.

Again, thanks for the replies!