Bitter/astringent first AG brews

[shanman75]

My first few AG brews used unmodified *filtered* tap water. Nearly all of them wound up tasting oddly bitter (I think astringent?). Living in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, my water is somewhat hard to begin with. NTMWD does pretty good tests, and my city does as well. Though, Bru'n Water says my mash should be in the 5.x range given their test results. (Water filter could be removing most of the temp hardness, though).

After having a couple brews like that, I bought some pH strips and measured the pH of the mash at various times and it was at or lower than 4.8 (I use pH sticks that measure between 4.6 and 6.2).

So, my last two brews, I've been experimenting with adding 1/2 tsp baking soda to the mash (added 1/4 tsp increments until mash settled at ~5.4 pH).

My logic is mashing with slightly acidic water extracts additional tannins. Though, being a previous extract brewer, I'm still learning.

Other theories are:

- Infection (unlikely...I clean like mad, and use Starsan for disinfectant)
- Sediment from mash tun getting into boil kettle (somewhat likely source...easily rectified with mesh)
- Fermentation temp control (unlikely...I use the same cooler water bath as when I did extract brewing)

Any thoughts on using baking soda to correct mash pH? Bru'n Water cautions on using too much due to the added sodium infusion.

Any other brewers in the North Texas area do water adjustments?

 

[samc]

Simple test would be to brew a batch using RO water and do the simple adjustments from AJ in the Primer sticky in the Brew Science Thread. If your beer comes out excellent (it will most likely) then you have solved the problem and can make some decisions on how to proceed in the future.

 

[RyanWeary]

Hey shanman75:

I'm in Oak Cliff and I've not experienced any problems with the water. I use water from my hose with this filter.

For certain types of brews (Oktoberfest, German and Bohemian Pilsners) I build my water from scratch using RO water as my base. But for IPA's, hefe's, and porters I use good ole filtered Dallas water with no issues.

The astringent flavor your tasting, is it more of a harsh alcohol astringency or more like a hop bitterness?

 

[KuntzBrewing]

Where do you get RO water

 

[sheeshomatic]

Most grocery stores or even Home Depot sells it near the registers. You can go and fill up bottles there- like your fermenter for instance.

 

[RyanWeary]

The grocery store. Also, some places have RO "kiosks" where you can refill your jugs for some measly little fee.

 

[shanman75]

Samc, that is one of the experiments I intend to try. I was hoping to get some good pointers on what could be causing the off flavor I'm tasting, though. Water adjustments might not be the source.

Ryan, the flavor mostly like hop bitterness, but it lingers for a few seconds and then tastes "off" (not sure how to describe it).

Nice suggestion with the filter. That's pretty cheap. I can't figure out if it would remove Chloramine so far, though (which is my main concern since they add Chloramine here instead of Chlorine)

 

[RyanWeary]

If it's too much hops my first question would be - are you doing a full volume boil? I don't know the exact "ins and outs" of hop bitterness extraction vs. volume, but I do know it CAN play a factor in bitterness.

This is just a theory - another would be to check the AA of your hops compared to what your recipe calls for. I often find that a recipe calls for "HOP X" at 5% AA and the LHBS has "HOP X" at 5.5%. Perhaps it's as simple as making an adjustment there. I tend to shy away from complicated solutions like perfecting pH. To be honest with you - I've never messed with the pH of my mash and I've never had the problem you're having. The beers I brew almost always come out exactly as planned and light lagers are one of my favorites to brew....a style where flaws are easy to notice.

 

[Yooper]

My first few AG brews used unmodified *filtered* tap water. Nearly all of them wound up tasting oddly bitter (I think astringent?). Living in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, my water is somewhat hard to begin with. NTMWD does pretty good tests, and my city does as well. Though, Bru'n Water says my mash should be in the 5.x range given their test results. (Water filter could be removing most of the temp hardness, though).

After having a couple brews like that, I bought some pH strips and measured the pH of the mash at various times and it was at or lower than 4.8 (I use pH sticks that measure between 4.6 and 6.2).

So, my last two brews, I've been experimenting with adding 1/2 tsp baking soda to the mash (added 1/4 tsp increments until mash settled at ~5.4 pH).

My logic is mashing with slightly acidic water extracts additional tannins. Though, being a previous extract brewer, I'm still learning.

Other theories are:

- Infection (unlikely...I clean like mad, and use Starsan for disinfectant)
- Sediment from mash tun getting into boil kettle (somewhat likely source...easily rectified with mesh)
- Fermentation temp control (unlikely...I use the same cooler water bath as when I did extract brewing)

Any thoughts on using baking soda to correct mash pH? Bru'n Water cautions on using too much due to the added sodium infusion.

Any other brewers in the North Texas area do water adjustments?

Odds are very slim that your mash pH was even low enough, let alone under 5.2. pH strips are notoriously inaccurate. Even with RO water, I have to acidify my mash most of the time to get the pH low enough. I think your odd flavor is coming from highly alkaline water, not the reverse and having the pH too low.

You can send a water sample to Ward Labs and for $16.50 get your complete water profile and not have to guess as to the make up. That's what I did.

 

[shanman75]

Yooper, I thought that as well. Especially since most of the advice out there seems to be around adding acids or salts that cause add acid to the mash. Maybe I should get a different brand/supply of pH strips to test with!

I can say adding baking soda did increase the pH, according to the strips. In my last batch (recipe: Hopville . "Light Honey Blonde" Blonde Ale Recipe), 1/2 tsp baking soda took it from below 4.8 to about 5.4. Though, I realize that this is all relative depending on the accuracy and age of the strips.

 

[RyanWeary]

Well - I believe I stand corrected! Maybe I should consider complex solutions My apologies - not trying to throw you off shanman!

(sorta) in your opinion - how often can municipally supplied water change? Sending a sample over to Ward Labs seems like a great idea, but I just wonder if it is something that should be done annually, bi-annually etc.....

(sorry again shanman, not trying to hijack your thread either....)

 

[shanman75]

Ryan, no your opinion's are just what I'm looking for...different people's experiences can definitely help when one gets stuck!

I did about 10 extract batches before switching to all grain. None of them had this off-flavor (though, I learned plenty during that experience).

What do you use for a Mash Tun? I'm using the standard equipment Home Depot style 10 gallon drink cooler. I'm thinking the wire braid might not be filtering enough sediment. I do vorlauf at least a gallon till it runs pretty clear.

My last brew, I filtered through a hop bag that I used to use for extract brewing. All my all grain batches have been full volume with the hops dropped right in.

 

[RyanWeary]

Your technique sounds pretty standard. I also use a Home Depot 10 gallon cooler to mash in with a stainless steel braid. I vorlauf and sparge very slowly though. In my system I boil off almost two gallons an hour, so to collect my full volume (8 gallons approximately) it takes me about 1.5 hours. I don't know if the speed at which wort is collected could effect your flavor, but I do know it helps efficiency and I average 85% eff these days. Another thought is your sparge water. Make sure you keep it around 168. Too hot and you'll extract tannins as well. Another possible culprit to bitterness.

 

[shanman75]

When you say you sparge slowly, are you attempting to do a fly sparge?

I've been averaging 85+% as well, and I'm ultra slow. I'm almost thinking that might be part of the issue as well.

I've been very careful not to get above 170F during sparge. The last few, I've done a single sparge of ~180F water and it balances out to 167-168F. The first few, I did multiple smaller infusions but never exceeded 168F (after balancing).

 

[RyanWeary]

I don't fly sparge in the traditional sense. I think we might be doing the same thing though. I just keep the top of the grain bed covered in water. I first raise the temp of my mash to 168 then I add water as needed with a large plastic "mug".

Interesting that you're getting this extra rogue bitterness. I just looked up your "Light Honey Blonde" ale and I actually have all of those ingredients at home. I'll throw it together this week and see what I come up with. Although a 90 min boil might do it on those hops. I wonder if that's supposed to be a first wort hop addition......hmmmmm

Also - in looking at the hop schedule, I noticed that Hopville's calculations might be off a little. I'm coming up with 39.46 IBU's compared to Hopville's 26.6.

 

[shanman75]

Adding the water in small "mug" batches is a good idea...I might try that next time.

I intended to use 1/4 oz of Nugget at the end instead of the 3/4 oz. I was targeting 20 IBU on hopville. Hopefully it will turn out fine since the screw up was on the flavor/aroma hops instead of the bittering ones!

I honestly don't mind bitterness, and love hops. But, the flavor I'm trying to rid myself of is "off". Maybe I should take it to a brew club meeting

I've done the recipe a couple times (with 1/4 instead of 3/4 Nugget) with extract and was VERY pleased with the results.

The 90 minute boil was because I used Pilsner malt instead of 2-row.

 

[RyanWeary]

Yeah, bring it out to a club meeting - don't know when the December brew day is, or if there is one, but let me know. Always nice to meet a fellow brewer!

As for the 90 min boil, your hop schedule shows .25oz of Nugget for 90 minutes. I was thinking maybe that was it, but if it's just "off" I guess a taste test is what's in order.

 

[captainL]

I had a harsh bitterness like you describe in my first few ag. I got a water report...ph 9.2. I corrected with ez water and mixed ro. No more harsh bitterness. I'm in Houston and have had 2 different reports from different areas. Both had high ph. I think most of Texas would be similar. Get a water report from ward labs. It's worth it.

 

[tgmartin000]

Were you measuring the ph at room temp? Also the strips measure about 0.3 low, did you adjust?

What was your sulfate / chloride ratio?

 

[shanman75]

No, I measured pH at mash temp. I'm betting that that's wrong, and I need to account for it. And, the measurements were un-adjusted raw numbers based off of the color I saw.

pH according to water report (cities "treated" report in the field) is 7.48.

Sulfate's are 77.1
Chloride is 37.9

Monthly Water Analysis

 

[SuperSynapse]

Rather than PH, did you use water that was too hot (above 180F) or over rinsing (longer than 30-45 mins)? That can bring out lots of tannins from the grain.

I know everyone likes to boast efficiency on this forum, but anything over 80% means you are over rinsing your grain. (which works out to about 87% if you reverse calculate wasted sugars in transfers/dead spaces).

Above that though, I have a strong hunch that when you crushed your grain you cut into the hulls. It's really important to use a proper grain mill, as the hulls should split cleanly into two halves around the crushed grain, rather than being cut or shredded. Check your grain next time and see if that is the problem.

 

[bferullo]

My first few AG batches came out with some astringency also. The senior members of my homebrew club told me I was probably just sparging with too hot of water. they told me that if I was sparging to keep the temp under 170 degrees.....168 to be safe. It seemed to solve my problems.

 

[captainL]

Chloramine? I don't think filters can remove chloramine if they they use that instead of chlorine.

 

[captainL]

Guess that doesn't explain the extract batches though.

 

[shanman75]

So, how long is too long for batch sparging/no sparging? I've been doing pretty lengthy sparges (>1hr)

 

[SuperSynapse]

IMO you usually want to sparge for 30 mins, 45 MAX. Don't fall into the over efficiency crowd.

 

[RyanWeary]

Hey Shan - I'm just finishing the boil on this recipe. Hopefully in a few weeks I'll be able to compare notes with you. I just used filtered Dallas tap water with no additions.

 

[BrewerDon]

I also live in Dallas and I felt like my first few all grain batches were more bitter and astringent than what I was going for. This improved greatly after getting a water analysis and making appropriate adjustments. You probably have the same issues - low chloride to sulfate ratio. Calcium Chloride will help.

Here are the numbers from my water analysis. Note that for many of the popular brewing water adjustment spreadsheets, multiply the Sulfate SO4-S number by three to get the SO4 number. So sulfate is actually 66 ppm not 22 ppm.


East Dallas Water

pH 7.4
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 231
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.38
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.1 / 3.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 30
Potassium, K 5
Calcium, Ca 25
Magnesium, Mg 5
Total Hardness, CaCO3 83
Nitrate, NO3-N 1.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 22
Chloride, Cl 34
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 34
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 28
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[RyanWeary]

I also live in Dallas and I felt like my first few all grain batches were more bitter and astringent than what I was going for. This improved greatly after getting a water analysis and making appropriate adjustments. You probably have the same issues - low chloride to sulfate ratio. Calcium Chloride will help.

Here are the numbers from my water analysis. Note that for many of the popular brewing water adjustment spreadsheets, multiply the Sulfate SO4-S number by three to get the SO4 number. So sulfate is actually 66 ppm not 22 ppm.


East Dallas Water

pH 7.4
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 231
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.38
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.1 / 3.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 30
Potassium, K 5
Calcium, Ca 25
Magnesium, Mg 5
Total Hardness, CaCO3 83
Nitrate, NO3-N 1.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 22
Chloride, Cl 34
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 34
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 28
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Hey Don, thanks for sharing that! Very helpful.

 

[DD2000GT]

I live in Garland and have always used tap water for my brews. Sure, the darker beers come out smoother, but the lighter ones were still pretty good. Here recently since about August, all of my brews have this same bitter/astringency issue. Nothing has changed in my equipment or brewing style. Have to assume something changed with the water. Brewed a Scottish Ale with 50 percent RO and 50 percent tap - astringency still there but much lighter (about 50% - lol). I am wondering since the drought and extremely low lake levels if they have changed what they are putting in the water, or if the water itself has changed.

Got one of those high flow RV inline filters for my next brew to see if that helps.