Big starter alternatives...

[stratslinger]

I'm pondering brewing a RIS and putting it away till winter. But, since RIS tends to be such a big beer, I know I'll need a big starter. Problem is, I don't have a large vessel to prepare a starter in - all I have is a couple of half-gallon growlers.

Which got me thinking... Would it be feasible / advisable / against the wishes of the beer gods to take a smack pack and split it between two smaller starters? Say, a week before brew day, I pitched half a smack pack to two separate 1L starters. Mid week, crash cool then add another 1.5L of wort to each, then the end of the week crash cool and pitch to the beer. Seems a decent way, at least in my brain, to get 3L worth of starter without having a 3-4L vessel.

Any reasons not to do things this way? Any need for an even smaller step prior to the 1L?

 

[wyzazz]

Sure you can do that, but there is an easier/better way. Brew a smaller beer, even if it's 2-3 gallons using that yeast. Something that you can turn around quickly with an OG of 1.050 or so. If you do this you can pitch that RIS directly on to that cake or even pull some of the slurry to pitch in to the RIS.

This is what I do when I brew higher OG batches.

 

[JonM]

And check Mr. Malty - it says that starter volumes work different ways with different levels of O2 - in other words, you'd need X liters of starter if the starter is left alone, but you can get away with using a much smaller starter if you give it pure O2 or if you use a stir plate.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Your idea will work. No need for a smaller step.

 

[nefarious_1_]

I'm pondering brewing a RIS and putting it away till winter. But, since RIS tends to be such a big beer, I know I'll need a big starter. Problem is, I don't have a large vessel to prepare a starter in - all I have is a couple of half-gallon growlers.

Which got me thinking... Would it be feasible / advisable / against the wishes of the beer gods to take a smack pack and split it between two smaller starters? Say, a week before brew day, I pitched half a smack pack to two separate 1L starters. Mid week, crash cool then add another 1.5L of wort to each, then the end of the week crash cool and pitch to the beer. Seems a decent way, at least in my brain, to get 3L worth of starter without having a 3-4L vessel.

Any reasons not to do things this way? Any need for an even smaller step prior to the 1L?

This sounds good, however I think you could expedite the process by just pitching one Activator pack into 1600ml of starter wort in each growler. You'd be growing virtually the same amount of yeast and would only have to make it a one step process. There's a nice chart in JZ and White's "Yeast" that shows potential yeast growth for healthy yeast and it looks to me like you'd be accomplishing almost the same thing. Your method might yield slightly more yeast and, of course, using one pack would be cheaper. I'm also not sure if you have another available to you.

Be careful about repitching yeast though. From Mr. Malty and same idea mentioned in "Yeast":

If you've brewed more than one batch, I'm sure you've noticed that there is a huge pile of yeast in the fermenter at the end. If (and that is a big 'if') you've got excellent sanitation all the way through the process and have provided proper yeast nutrition (including O2), you have a gold mine of healthy yeast ready to reuse. Of course, you don't want to reuse the whole thing. I know a number of people dump a new batch on top of the yeast cake, but you're not going to get the best beer that way. Yeast do need some growth to result in the right kind of ester profile, etc. While too big a pitch is better than too little, it is pretty easy to figure out how much you need and pitch just that.

There are about 4.5 billion yeast cells in 1 milliliter of yeast solids (solids with no excess liquid). According to Fix, in a slurry, only about 25% of the mass is yeast solids. Of course, if there is a lot of trub in there, you have an even lower percentage of yeast solids. The bad thing is that you can't tell how viable that yeast is, unless you have the equipment to properly test and count it. So this is where it gets a little bit like black magic. There are a number of factors that affect the viability of a given pitch of yeast. How old is the yeast? How stressful was their last fermentation? Have they had the proper environment and nutrients for successful reproduction or are they too scarred and tired to go on?

When the yeast is fresh and healthy off an previous batch, viability is maybe around 90%+. It goes down from there fairly quickly without proper storage and it also really depends on the strain of yeast. Unless you're going to get into testing viability, you're going to need to make some educated guesses and keep good notes on the results. This is where being a yeast psychic really helps. Start in a range of 80 to 90% viability and you probably won't be too far off. Use the Pitching Rate CalculatorTM to help figure out how much of that yeast you need. If your yeast viability is much lower than 90%, you should probably toss the yeast. If you really want to use it, you might consider pitching it in some starter wort to get the still viable cells active. When they're in solution, decant that active part of the starter into another vessel, hopefully leaving the dead cells behind.

Granted, you wouldn't be overpitching since the yeast would be from a smaller beer, but you should really wash the yeast cake before repitching. Or, instead of making a smaller beer which will contribute trub and increase the potential for unhealthy yeast if left unwashed, why not just make a large starter? It seems more simple to me...

I did notice you mentioned that you don't have a larger vessel though, so this isn't really an option. Personally, I would go with your original plan or the 2 pack idea mentioned above.

 

[bknifefight]

Depending on the gravity of your beer and the size of the starter, it may be worth using dry yeast. For a beer with an OG of 1.100 you would need 2.64 liters of a simple starter but only 1.6 11 gram packages of yeast. I know this doesn't answer your question directly, but it's an alternative.

 

[wyzazz]

Instead of making a smaller beer which will contribute lots of trub and increase the potential for unhealthy yeast, why not just make a large starter? It seems more simple to me...

Ummm, because you get more BEER with my way.

 

[nefarious_1_]

Ummm, because you get more BEER with my way.

True. But you're sacrificing the quality of the larger beer in the process. I dunno, just my $0.02.

 

[TheMan]

I would go with Wyzazz suggestion.

 

[wyzazz]

True. But you're sacrificing the quality of the larger beer in the process. I dunno, just my $0.02.

Really? I'll respectfully disagree, if your sanitation is good & you aren't making a hop heavy or dark roasty beer I think you'll be fine pitching a measured amount of slurry for a big beer. Especially something like a RIS that has all kinds of dark roasty charachter. I do this all the time with nothing but great results. Re-pitching my yeast always gives me a much more vigorous and much cleaner ferment. If you're so inclined (sometimes I am) you can wash the slurry from the "starter batch" and pitch that.

Different strokes I guess...

 

[nefarious_1_]

Really? I'll respectfully disagree, if your sanitation is good & you aren't making a hop heavy or dark roasty beer I think you'll be fine pitching a measured amount of slurry for a big beer. Especially something like a RIS that has all kinds of dark roasty charachter. I do this all the time with nothing but great results. Re-pitching my yeast always gives me a much more vigorous and much cleaner ferment. If you're so inclined (sometimes I am) you can wash the slurry from the "starter batch" and pitch that.

So you agree about washing the yeast, yet disagree about not washing it?

Now I'm confused...



You feel it's not needed, yet do it sometimes anyway?

 

[wyzazz]

So you agree about washing the yeast, yet disagree about not washing it?

Now I'm confused...



You feel it's not needed, yet do it sometimes anyway?

I feel it's warranted/needed in some situations. In this situation I suggested doing a lower gravity beer that could be turned around quickly (something simple) to grow up some yeast. I'm not trying to start a real debate here but you don't need to wash your yeast every time you repitch, it's simply not necessary. Show me a brewery that washes their yeast every time the repitch, or better yet show me one that doesn't repitch their yeast.

 

[cfonnes]

+1

Depending on the gravity of your beer and the size of the starter, it may be worth using dry yeast. For a beer with an OG of 1.100 you would need 2.64 liters of a simple starter but only 1.6 11 gram packages of yeast. I know this doesn't answer your question directly, but it's an alternative.

You are not looking for yeast profile on an RIS. Dry yeast would be my answer.

 

[wyzazz]

This is a great option, some Nottingham or US-05 would be a nice choice.

 

[beowulf]

I agree with the dry option, unless you already have some liquid yeast. If you have liquid already, I would concur with brewing a small beer first...maybe a porter or oatmeal stout. I love reusing yeast, and although I know it's probably a better practice to wash it, I've reused (partial) cakes 10+ times (unwashed) with excellent results (yes it works better if you don't use the ENTIRE cake). Maybe I'm just lazy...I've been called worse. Yeast fresh from a previous batch, though, is very potent and like wyzazz said, you get more beer as a result.

Best of luck to you....I hope your RIS turns out well!

 

[Patirck]

I did a 1.048 brown ale with wyeast 1056 and then pitched an RIS directly on the yeast cake in the same fermenter - took off fast and finished quick. I then did a mini cold crash and put it in glass to secondary for a few months with some wood and bourbon. Worked great.

I am finding that yeast starters are ok but making another batch of beer as a starter is better since you get another batch of beer. I know people have reasons to wash yeast but so far I have either pitched on top of the yeast cake or poured it into a mason jar and then poured the entire contents into another beer some time later. I have yet to have an attenuation issue.

 

[orangehero]

In the Yeast book they recommend against pitching on an entire cake as that is usually way overpitching. Also they note that many brewers consider the 3rd repitch from a lab propagation to have the best flavor.

 

[WazzuBrew]

I would by 3 smack packs and pitch. According to their FAQ this is acceptable. Im all about keeping it simple even though it costs me a bit more money at times. Cheers!

 

[Woodbury419]

Generally the way I always pitch my yeast into big OG beers is I make up a 1L starter of 1.040 dry DME. I use a 1l filtering flask connected to an air pump that utilizes activated charcoal tube and a HEPA filter blowing scrubbed air into the filtering flask on a stir plate. I let it sit there on the plate for 12hrs. Then I turn it off, let it set for another 4 hrs. Then I have another batch of DME ready and cooled and I decant the spent wort from my original starter and pour in the fresh wort with added yeast nutrient and Citric acid and reset on the stirplate for another 12 hrs. By then it's brew day and you will have amazing healthy yeast and I see a krausen within 4 hours of pitching into my heavyweight beer.

 

[Jtc2811]

Another extra cheap option is to whip up a 1/2 gallon starter in a plastic gallon jug with your smack pack, then step it up in any sanitize-able vessel, such as a cheap water jug. Quick and dirty, but effective

 

[Vance71975]

I'm pondering brewing a RIS and putting it away till winter. But, since RIS tends to be such a big beer, I know I'll need a big starter. Problem is, I don't have a large vessel to prepare a starter in - all I have is a couple of half-gallon growlers.

Which got me thinking... Would it be feasible / advisable / against the wishes of the beer gods to take a smack pack and split it between two smaller starters? Say, a week before brew day, I pitched half a smack pack to two separate 1L starters. Mid week, crash cool then add another 1.5L of wort to each, then the end of the week crash cool and pitch to the beer. Seems a decent way, at least in my brain, to get 3L worth of starter without having a 3-4L vessel.

Any reasons not to do things this way? Any need for an even smaller step prior to the 1L?

You could do that, You could also brew a 1.050 stout and pitch your RIS right on to the yeast cake when its done, Or you could simply use 4 smack packs of yeast, or 1 smack pack and 3 or 4 of a neutral Dry yeast re-hydrated. Yes the last two will cost a bit more, but i have done it and had it work out very well.