Big Flavours

[nicklawmusic]

I've recently converted to all grain beer from beer kits/partial mash. The last two beers that I've done (a mild bitter and a northern brown ale) have both been okay but seem to lack big flavours in comparison to many commercial beers.

Any suggestions on how I can create beers with big flavours other than just making high gravity hoptastic beers?

 

[brew_ny]

recipes and what you did to make your beers would help

all the best

S_M

 

[McGarnigle]

Is your mash not working right, depriving you of some of the grain flavor? Neither of these styles is hoppy, so that's all you've got.

These aren't blockbuster styles. When you compare to commercial beers, do you mean BMC, Or good craft beers? Beers like Brooklyn Brown or Rogue Hazelnut Brown are much higher gravity than traditional British browns.

 

[nicklawmusic]

I meant good craft beers. The first one I made was a SMaSH beer which tastes really good. In all fairness, the last two got a little stuck toward the end so they're slightly sweeter than I'd hoped for (and I'd mashed at a high temp, 69c, so that was partly intended). I suppose that has contributed a bit. I'll try an dig out the recipes for you to take a look.

I guess I was just wondering how these craft brewers get huge flavours on their beers regardless of gravity.

 

[motobrewer]

one ancillary note i've found to brewing these styles is to keep the body up. Mash high, finish high. Something like 1.040 -> 1.018. Use Maris Otter / Golden Promise over 2-row.

But yes - a mild bitter isn't gonna have the same punch as commercial craft, but that's kind of the point.

 

[motobrewer]

I guess I was just wondering how these craft brewers get huge flavours on their beers regardless of gravity.

who is? not many commercial craft brewers put out much below 5%.

 

[nicklawmusic]

In the UK a lot of microbreweries brewing anything from 3.6% upwards. Bradfield Brewery near where I live have all kind of cask and bottled ales that are delicious around 4.something % ABV.

 

[nicklawmusic]

The mash thing helps. My FG on the brown ale was 1.018 with an OG of 1.046. I used Brewers Friend which said it should come on around 1.014 though, so I worried a bit.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Just whilst we're on gravities, I'm planning on brewing a strong Christmas ale. The recipe (it's a Gordon Strong Holiday Beer on BYO) says that the mash temp is 70c.

How do you brew big gravity beers and high mash temps without them stalling? My concern is that one packet of S04 in a 1.070 won't ferment down to a reasonably low FG.

 

[motobrewer]

That's probably accurate. Should ferment to low 1.020's without effort. Which is what you're looking for.

I've mashed RIS's at 1.107 @ 70c, they get down to 1.030 using US05.

 

[motobrewer]

which probably brings us to the crux of your issue - you're probably mashing low abv beers too low.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Mashing low ABV beers too low? Do you mean mashing them too high?

 

[SnakeRidge]

I've found that mashing at 156-158 for my low gravity session beers has helped out. I used to mash these (pale ales and IPA's at 1.035-1.040 OG) session beers the same as their big brothers and got a very thin beer. Very unbalanced with harsh hops and no malt. Bumping the temp up to the higher end of the range helped. The ABV is a function of the change in gravity; so if you start with a low OG and end with a high-ish FG, you can get a low alcohol beer with plenty of flavor.

 

[motobrewer]

no, i think you're mashing too low, which makes them finish low, which makes thin, watery beer.

 

[nicklawmusic]

You do know I'm taking Celsius not Fahrenheit? I was under the impression that for a higher fermentable beer you mash at around 64C and for a less fermentable beer around 69C.

What is the correct range in Celsius?

 

[nicklawmusic]

According to the BeerSmith blog the range is between 64C - 75C (though I was under the impression that a mash out happened at 70C).

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/12/20/mash-temperature-and-beer-body-in-all-grain-brewing/

 

[motobrewer]

yes. you want a less fermentable wort. less fermentable wort means higher finishing gravity.

Lets say you had a 1.050 beer, all 2-row. Mashing at 64C would probably result in a FG of around 1.008. Mashing at 72C would result in an FG of maybe 1.018. These are just estimates to prove the point.

Mashout is around 75/76C.

 

[SnakeRidge]

We know you're talkin Celsius, if you mashed at 65F, you would get absolutely no conversion.

The range I mentioned, 156-158F is equal to 69C-70C.

 

[motobrewer]

a lot of "middle road" beers (pales, browns, porters, etc) mash right in the 154F (67.7C) range. That's a pretty standard mash temp. Adjust from there.

Like Snake said, for low ABV beers, stick to the 68.5-70C range.

 

[nicklawmusic]

So, for example, I did what was supposed to be an Irish Red at a mash temperature of 69C. Unfortunately, I didn't get a much efficacy as if hoped (I was aiming for 1.046) and got an OG of 1.038.

To add insult to injury, my FG was only 1.020.

Should I have mashed that beer at a lower temp to make a more fermentable wort? I wanted something that was going to have more body. It actually has quite a lot of body but just not a lot of flavour. It was made up of:

3KG Maris Otter
1Kg Vienna Malt
50g Roasted Barley
250g Crystal 120
250g Biscuit

30g Fuggles 60 mins
20g East Kent Golding 5 mins

White Labs Irish Ale yeast

18L in total when in the fermentor.

I though, given the grain bill, there would be shed loads of malt character but, if anything, it tastes more like a beer from a beer kit (the pre-hopped cans) than it does an all grain beer.

 

[motobrewer]

well, sounds like things didn't go right with that beer in general.

1.038 -> 1.020, things definitely aren't in balance. The recipe looks relatively sound on paper. If I were you I'd give this recipe one more try, maybe trying 68C for a mash temp and see where you're at. Mash pH and water makeup are also something to consider.

Did you have a strong ferment? Did you make a yeast starter? Did you oxygenate?

 

[nicklawmusic]

I did make a yeast starter, though I don't have a stir plate (yet!) but I did keep shaking it throughout the 48 hours it was getting going.

As for oxygenating prior to pitch, I opened the down on my Brew castle and let the wort fall in from above. It is the first beer that I used that method rather than vigorous shaking. Tomorrow, when I brew again, I shall go back to vigorous shaking as I don't think it was arrayed enough!

Also, there wasn't much krosen action or anything. I did mash at 68/69C with this one.

 

[motobrewer]

i would recommend investing in an oxygenation kit and aeration stone. it seems like one of those "ancillary" things that you don't really need to worry about but once I started oxygenating with pure O2 I noticed an improvement in my fermentations.

 

[nicklawmusic]

I've started reading in places about aerating your wort during the first three days of fermentation. Is that good/bad practice?

 

[motobrewer]

I aerate before I pitch. I don't think it's good practice or necessary to aerate after growth phase.

 

[McGarnigle]

I've started reading in places about aerating your wort during the first three days of fermentation. Is that good/bad practice?

Link below suggests 12-24 hours. The idea is that dry yeast begins with O2 in it, but the yeast uses it up and needs a pick-me-up.

http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/oxygenation-timing