Big beer with 10 gal mash tun

[Chefencore]

My next batch is a IIPA, with a 17 lb grain bill. I've done the calculations, and if I use a 1:1 ratio, after the infusion, my mash tun will be full, and I will need only a 1 gallon sparge. If I bump it up to 1.1 gal/lb I will have absolutely NO room for correction if I don't hit my temps, and will 'need' only a 1qt sparge.

I've only brewed maybe 5 all-grain batches, and have had mixed results with temps.
Also, since I want to extract every drop of sugary goodness, I was wondering about sparging. From what I've read, you want to keep the flow into the tun equal to what is draining out, and the water level just a few inches above the grain bed. After I vorlauf, should I drain down to the grain bed (should be rather high with this one) then begin to sparge?

 

[JakeFegely]

I had the same problem with a 16 lb IIPA. Had to tweak the mash step schedule and ended up with a small sparge volume. Efficiency was poor, I believe because I couldn't wash enough sugars out with the small sparge volume. A couple things I've done or read since then:
1) If using a step infusion, adjust the water temp of the second or later infusion to near boiling. That will reduce the amount of water needed.
2) If you use a mash out step, you can pull a thin decoction, boil it and return it to the tun to hit the mash out temp - which requires no additional water.
3) I also thought about making a 4 gallon batch and fermenting it in a 5 gallon better bottle. If I do that, I'll probably dry hop right in that 5 gallon primary.

 

[Chefencore]

I typically use boiling water for my infusions, but to move 5 gallons and 17 lbs 20 degrees, it's over 4 gallons of boiling water.
If do use decoction, how will that affect my end product? Is it merely a choice, like batch vs fly sparging? A club member told me that for decoction you remove water and grain. Doesn't boiling grain release tannins?
There has got to be some science behind the differences. But it is unbeknownst to me, new to allgrain and all.

 

[dcp27]

My next batch is a IIPA, with a 17 lb grain bill. I've done the calculations, and if I use a 1:1 ratio, after the infusion, my mash tun will be full, and I will need only a 1 gallon sparge. If I bump it up to 1.1 gal/lb I will have absolutely NO room for correction if I don't hit my temps, and will 'need' only a 1qt sparge.

unless you're doing a small batch, you're going to need way more than a 1gal sparge. you'll want around 1 gal extra pre-boil to make up for evaporation and theres about a 0.12 gal/lb absorbtion loss to account for as well. you'll want nearly a 4gal sparge

btw, unless you have alot of deadspace in your tun, you should be able to fit much more than a 1.1 qt/lb mash (thats only around 6gals space)

 

[Yooper]

What kind of mash tun do you have? I have a 10 gallon igloo MLT and I can fit up to 25 pounds of grain in it, at 1.25 quarts per pound.

Check out this quick calculator to double check your fit: http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml, about 1/3 way down the page.

According to that calculator, 17 pounds of grain in a 1.25 quart/pound mash will take up 6.67 gallons of space.

 

[brew2enjoy]

This picture is from a recent brew I did. It was a DFH 90 minute IPA recipe using exactly 17lbs of grain. I used the typical 1.25qt/pound ratio. As you can see, plenty of space in my 10 gallon Rubbermaid cooler.

 

[cox8611]

I typically use boiling water for my infusions, but to move 5 gallons and 17 lbs 20 degrees, it's over 4 gallons of boiling water.
If do use decoction, how will that affect my end product? Is it merely a choice, like batch vs fly sparging? A club member told me that for decoction you remove water and grain. Doesn't boiling grain release tannins?
There has got to be some science behind the differences. But it is unbeknownst to me, new to allgrain and all.

its got to do with the pH of the liquid you are boiling. typical mash pH is 5.2-5.8, which is safe to boil. Typical sparge (city/well) water is 6.5-8.5. The change in pH allows the tannins to be extracted, either put some 5.2 buffer (phosphoric acid) and adjust the pH down to the mash pH and you'll be fine.

 

[Chefencore]

Here's my calculations:

17lb grain bill, mash at 1qt/lb (1.36 gal)
Strike = 4.25 gallons @ 168degF
Mashout = 2.46 gal @ 212degF to 170degF

Total in tun = 8.06 gallons (which is a 10 gallon gatorade cooler)
preboil volume = 6.5 gallons
8.06 - .325 (deadspace) - 2.125(absorption) = 5.61 into kettle
6.5 - 5.6 = .9 gallons sparge

If I bump it up to a 1.1 ratio, I end up with 9.9 gallons in the tun and a quart or so to sparge.

Now, I have never brewed with anyone before, so I'm taking all of my knowledge from videos, this site, books, etc... I'm assuming that I'm doing it right because I get pretty decent beer at the end.

I combine my grains and strike water and let it sit for the determined amount of time (dough-in) I then add boiling water to bring the mash to my mashout temp (if recipe calls for it) and, again, rest. Vorlauf until clear, and begin to drain and sparge. I generally let most of the 'headspace' drain before I start adding the sparge water. I'm just assuming that this will give the grains a better 'rinse'.

 

[BigTerp]

What kind of mash tun do you have? I have a 10 gallon igloo MLT and I can fit up to 25 pounds of grain in it, at 1.25 quarts per pound.

Check out this quick calculator to double check your fit: http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml, about 1/3 way down the page.

According to that calculator, 17 pounds of grain in a 1.25 quart/pound mash will take up 6.67 gallons of space.

This sounds about right. I did a double batch of a nut brown in my 10 gallon Rubbermaid with 23lbs of grain and at 1.25 qts/lb I had room to spare.

Search "How Big Does My Mash Tun Need To Be". There is a chart with various size MLT's that shows the maximum amount of grain they can hold at 1.25 qts/lb.

 

[Chefencore]

its got to do with the pH of the liquid you are boiling. typical mash pH is 5.2-5.8, which is safe to boil. Typical sparge (city/well) water is 6.5-8.5. The change in pH allows the tannins to be extracted, either put some 5.2 buffer (phosphoric acid) and adjust the pH down to the mash pH and you'll be fine.

Thanks!

What kind of mash tun do you have? I have a 10 gallon igloo MLT and I can fit up to 25 pounds of grain in it, at 1.25 quarts per pound.

Check out this quick calculator to double check your fit: http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml, about 1/3 way down the page.

According to that calculator, 17 pounds of grain in a 1.25 quart/pound mash will take up 6.67 gallons of space.

I used my calculator, tried yours, and even did good ol’ math. Yes, my initial mash will be

17lb grain bill, mash at 1qt/lb (1.36 gal)
Strike = 4.25 gallons @ 168degF

5.61 gallons

The next step in my mash schedule is to mashout at 170degF for ten minutes. To accomplish this, I add

Mashout = 2.46 gal @ 212degF to 170degF

to my mash, which increases the total volume to

Total in tun = 8.06 gallons (which is a 10 gallon gatorade cooler)

Now it’s time to remove the wort and boil!!!

preboil volume = 6.5 gallons
8.06 - .325 (deadspace) - 2.125(absorption) = 5.61 into kettle
6.5 - 5.6 = .9 gallons sparge

So... I can fit how much?

 

[Piratwolf]

I used my calculator, tried yours, and even did good ol’ math. Yes, my initial mash will be 5.61 gallons.

The next step in my mash schedule is to mashout at 170degF for ten minutes. To accomplish this, I add X to my mash, which increases the total volume to 5.61 gallons + X. Now it’s time to remove the wort and boil!!!

Then, having DRAINED MY MASH TUN INTO THE BOIL POT,

I can fit all the sparge water I need !!!

Fixed that for ya

 

[Chefencore]

Then, having DRAINED MY MASH TUN INTO THE BOIL POT,

Fixed that for ya

But for a 60 minutes boil, in a 7 gallon kettle, max preboil is 7. Which is 1.4 gallons sparge.

 

[JakeFegely]

What is your mash schedule? You describe a mash volume of 1.36 gallons and a strike volume of 4.25 gallons. What temps are you trying to hit with those 2 infusions?

 

[dcp27]

just skip the mash out addition, its not necessary.

 

[Chefencore]

What is your mash schedule? You describe a mash volume of 1.36 gallons and a strike volume of 4.25 gallons. What temps are you trying to hit with those 2 infusions?

Mash at 150 for 60 minutes
Mashout at 170 for 10 minutes

The 1.36 is the volume of the grain, and 4.25 is the actual strike water.

 

[brew2enjoy]

I think you are over-complicating things. Skip the mashout as someone else mentioned.

mash-drain-sparge-drain-boil

 

[bschot]

I prefer to do a mash-out to lock in my sugars at the end of the mash. Otherwise it continues to convert starches to sugar, the sparge water will eventually mash out but that takes more time. To avoid adding water for mash out I use decoction mash-out. This allows me to do large beers in a 8.5 gallon mash tun, such as an Imperial IPA with 19.5 lbs of grain. And I get to sparge with a little less than 4 gallons.

Decoction mashing is pulling a portion of thick mash (mostly grain and a little liquid) putting it in a separate boil kettle and bring it to a boil and then add it back to the main mash to raise its overall temp. This is done repeatedly until one reachs the last temp before the mash out. The mash-out is accomplished with pulling thin mash (mostly liquid and very little grain, I collect via draining from the mash tun spigot) bring to a boil and adding the thin mash back to the main mash to achieve mash-out.

With the initial infusion of strike water the mash enzymes are washed into the thin part of the mash and remain there when the thick mash is pulled and boiled. Decoction works without leaching tannins because one needs increased temperature and increased pH to leach tannins. The grain itself has sufficient buffering power to control pH, so no tannins are leached. At the end of the mash the thin mash is pulled and boiled which denatures the mash enzymes and then is added back to the main mash to denature the rest of the enzymes for mash-out.

I hope this gives an idea of decoction. I've only given brief steps and descriptions of it, so if you're interested please watch BrewingTV Episode 34. It is a great starting point and there is alot of literature online to help you get started. Kaiser is also a great source of information. Brewing software will help with values for amounts to pull for decoction but amounts can be calculated by hand. If you have any questions I'd be more than happy to try to help.

Cheers

 

[Bombeque]

Just did a 21lb grain bill in a 10 gallon. Not much room at the top, but fly sparged just fine. 1.3 qt/lb ratio. Never measured my sparge. Just got the estimated boil volume of 7.5 gallons. Easy

 

[rjschroed]

just skip the mash out addition, its not necessary.

This, especially when batch sparging. make sure your first sparge addition raises your grain bed temp and start heating your first runnings. conversion will stop.

 

[Backporchbrewery]

If you're fly sparging, you should be draining the mash tun at the same rate you're adding the sparge water so the volume should never really increase much in the mash tun.

If you're batch sparging, you've already drained the mash tun and when you add your batch of sparge water just make sure it's the temp to raise the mash (wet grain left after draining) to 170.

Volume should never be a problem.

I just did a 23lb grain bill barley wine in a 10g cooler, batch sparged no problem. I actually ended up with too much wort and had to increase my boil to lose an extra gallon.

 

[PGHBrew]

What kind of mash tun do you have? I have a 10 gallon igloo MLT and I can fit up to 25 pounds of grain in it, at 1.25 quarts per pound.

Check out this quick calculator to double check your fit: http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml, about 1/3 way down the page.

According to that calculator, 17 pounds of grain in a 1.25 quart/pound mash will take up 6.67 gallons of space.

+1 - I just did 24 lbs of grain at 1.25 qts/lb in a 10 gal. Home Depot mash tun last weekend with no problems. It was pretty full though.

For an IIPA I would just single infusion mash and batch or fly sparge.

 

[wailingguitar]

I recently did a 16# mash in my 10 gallon and, seeing the volume, I figured I could probably do a little over 20# with a standard "fly sparge"... My regular technique is a variation wherein I begin runoff and then get my sparge water all in as quickly as possible without disturbing the grain bed. Maybe 7-10 minutes. I runoff over the course of an hour.

I've done this in several commercial breweries and it does a great job. There really isn't a need to babysit the sparge flow rate unless you don't have the volume in the mash tun to get all your water in. Maybe go slow until a certain kettle volume is reached, then proceed with rapid introduction of sparge. The mass of sparge water sits on top of the grain, contrary to popular belief it won't compress and stick the mash (have done this with wheat beers and oatmeal stouts, both known for being sticky) and since the water doesn't actually mix with the grain until it passes through, it doesn't have a noticeable effect on the pH of the grain. Simple, less stress...

 

[JakeFegely]

Mash at 150 for 60 minutes
Mashout at 170 for 10 minutes

The 1.36 is the volume of the grain, and 4.25 is the actual strike water.

If you go back to your calculation of kettle volume on the first page, you included the grain volume as part of the volume into the kettle. The calculated volume after the first draining of the MLT should be 1.36 gallons less, giving you that much more for the sparge volume

 

[Chefencore]

I can't find it anymore, but I believe that Midwestsupplies.com had Bad Advice for $1.00. That's MUCH cheaper than the currently discounted price for a 1 yr membership.
Thank beer god for the world's largest brewing community

 

[prrriiide]

I have no problems doing over 20# of grain with 1.25/lb ratio in my 10 gallon Igloo.

Or, you could just steep your specialty grains in the water you were going to use for mashout.