BIAB RIMS Experiment

[GREM]

I've been brewing all grain on a Ruby Street RIMS system for about two & a half years now. I became interested in BIAB when a friend asked me to help him learn how to homebrew. A story for another thread it got me thinking. Currently I brew ten gallon batches & my next big purchase will be a conical fermenter. I'd like to get one big enough to ferment 20 gal at a time & I don't want to purchase bigger pots. I've done back to back brew sessions a few times & it makes for a really long brew day! The boil pot sits idle during the entire time it takes to heat the mash water & mash on a normal brew day; so I'm going to start a ten gallon BIAB first in the boil kettle. I'll heat up about 5 gal of sparge water in the hot liquor kettle to use to sparge with after I hoist the basket & bag out of the pot before boil if needed. (the basket rests on a lip in the pot suspending it 1/4" above the pickup tube about 2" off the bottom of the pot) I'll fill the 15 gal pot as full as possible with mash temp water after grains are added, recirculate to add heat as needed & use a refractometer to adjust final pre boil wort as needed. After I start to boil the BIAB batch I'll start the second ten gallon batch in the mash kettle & proceed as normal, chilling the first batch in time to transfer the second batch into the same boil kettle. I suspended a 4' long piece of thick walled pipe from the garage rafters & use a piece of cable with loops on the ends attached to a 1/4 ton ratchet style chain hoist so it can slide out of the way after it clears the pot. The bag is one made by Jeff with four handles so two of us can carry it out to the compost pile when it is fully drained. I spent today practicing on a 5 gal BIAB batch getting ready for Tuesday when a few of my brewing friends are going to join me for the 20 gal brew day experiment. Here's my setup... Issues, suggestions, input? Cheers...

 

[Bigscience]

So you've got 15 gallon pots? Unless I missed something in your post, you won't be able to do a 10 gallon BIAB (of any gravity anyway) for your first batch. Maybe a 5-5 in the kettle and MLT while you heat your strike water and then transfer and boil in the kettle. I've thought about doing an extract in the kettle while I mash an AG before. Depending on your setup, you could even boil an extract batch (or 2) in your HLT and MLT while you did an AG in your kettle. IF you wanted to go all crazy mass production...

 

[wilserbrewer]

Sounds like a solid approach,

I see 2 nice pots there, I would use a second bag and do two concurrent full volume BIAB batches and be done?

 

[wilserbrewer]

I'd also suggest a Rubbermaid tote to haul the spent grain bag to avoid dripping wort about the brewery....cheers!
Have fun!!!!

 

[RM-MN]

I'd suggest that you bring your mash water to strike temperature and then stir in the grains. Adding the grains and then bring the temperature up is likely to get you a much more fermentable wort than you were planning on if your grains are milled fine for BIAB. With the small grain particles the conversion happens really quick and you aren't likely to get to alpha amylase temperature range quick enough. Try a batch and see.

 

[GREM]

Just when I think I have things figured out you guys have to go & throw in a whole bunch of great ideas. That's why I like homebrewing so much. There's no end to ideas & improvements.

I have three 15 gal Bayou Classic kettles with a gas burner under each one. The two on the lower tier have 3/4" false bottoms although I don't use the one in the boil kettle on the right & prefer to transfer thru a strainer bag instead. (however the false bottom can be used for BIAB brewing) The middle kettle is fitted with the other false bottom & used for mashing with a temperature probe installed; so a bag won't work in that kettle. The third kettle on the top tier is the HLT & used for gravity fed sparging. All three kettles can be routed thru a mounted March pump for a variety of duties.

I brewed up a five gallon BIAB batch of pale ale today to get familiar with the BIAB procedure. It's a good thing, as I learned a lot & changed a few things. I recirculated the whole time & experimented both with the basket & without. When it was all said & done by the time the boil finished, I ended up with about 4 gal of wort with a gravity of 1.090. I added 2 gallons of water & boiled for an additional 10 min to bring it down to 1.060 before chilling. It's been fermenting for about 8 hrs now & showing signs of healthy activity.

It became apparent in a hurry that it would be a challenge to do a ten gallon batch of BIAB in one of my kettles without using some sort of sparging technique; so I spent some time tonight researching others experiences on here. The one that made the most sense to me is "wilserbrewer's" explanation in reply #2.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/moving-5-gallon-10-gallon-biab-batches-427219/#post5438636

As a result, there's been a change in direction for brew day on Tuesday. We have decided to try a 5 gal batch of Barley Wine from Jamil & John's "Brewing Classic Styles" book in the BIAB first. The grain bill is 25.7 lbs & typically doing all grain I use 1.33 qts of water per lb of grist with the false bottom installed; so I thought I'd start with 9 gal of water. The recipe suggests a mash temp of 149 F. I plan to heat the strike water to 162 F, install the bag without the basket on top of the false bottom & add the grist. The recipe also calls for a 90 min rest & a 60 min boil. How much strike water should I start with for a full volume BIAB to end up with 7 gal of preboil wort after the grains absorb what they need? I'm looking for a preboil gravity of 1.098 after the bag is hoisted & drained. The HLT will be full & available with heated water. Thanks in advance.

When the BIAB is ready to boil we'll have the grain bill & water profile ready for a ten gallon batch of an IPA to be mashed in the middle kettle then sparged & pumped into the boil kettle after it is emptied from the BIAB batch. In the end; if all goes well we should end up with 5 gals of Barley Wine & 10 gallons of IPA. Thoughts?

A few more pics to help explain...

 

[wilserbrewer]

Partigyle?

 

[GREM]

Partigyle?

Yikes! What a day! I think the next time I decide to experiment I'll do it with something other than a Barley Wine! I made the decision yesterday to switch things around & brew a pale ale first in the BIAB then the Barley Wine using the three pot all grain procedure. One of the best decisions I've made in a while. The last day of 2013 went something like this...

I got up early with grains already weighed & water already prepared for the BIAB batch. I decided to do a ten gallon recipe. The total grain bill is 23 lbs with pre boil gravity =1.048/OG =1.054. Pre boil volume =13 gal. The gang of three arrived with carboy's in hand an hour later. They went to work grinding the grains while I finished up with some water adjustments & heating of the BIAB & HLT water. Ten gallons is a nice round number & easy to remember for a ten gallon batch; so that's what we started with. When the water in the boil/BIAB kettle reached 165F we killed the heat & added the bag. Stirred in all the grains & stuck the lid on the kettle. We left it alone after temps settled out at 152F stirring every 10 min & checking temps. I shut off the heat when HLT water reached 168F. About half way thru the mash the temps dropped a few degrees so we gravity fed enough hot water from the HLT & stirred to bring temps back up to 152F.

Initially we did not use the basket & opted to mash with the bag resting directly on the false bottom. After an hour we hooked the bag handles to the chain hoist & elevated it high enough to "drain dry". A custom made tapered bag lifted slowly is the only option I would even consider after hoisting 23 lbs of wet grain out of the kettle.

We simultaneously treated & heated the water & ground grist for the Barley Wine brew. After the bag was almost "drip dry" we hoisted it up high enough to slip the strainer basket beneath; & lowered everything back into the kettle long enough to unhook the bag handles & open it up using clips to hold it in place around the basket handles. Kinda like an un-intentional dunk sparge; let's just call it a "dunky-do". We raised everything back out of the wort high enough to sparge, only to find the March pump being used for something else involved with the Barley Wine batch. We took a pitcher & slowly poured 168F HLT water over the elevated grain bed to reach pre boil volume & proceeded from there.

In the end, two went home w/carboys filled from the BIAB batch with an OG of 1.060. The other went home with his 1.103 OG gravity Barley Wine that took all day. As for me? I ended up with the remains...

A 3 gal Partigyle from the Barley Wine batch that clocks in at 1.067

Cheers everyone & Happy New Year

 

[GREM]

Sounds like a solid approach,

I see 2 nice pots there, I would use a second bag and do two concurrent full volume BIAB batches and be done?

I heeded this advice with the exception of doing full volume batches. Since the pots are not large enough to do FV 10 gallon batches; I decided to use two bags & two baskets...one in each kettle with a pulley attached to each. I will concurrently start with the same ratio of grist to water as I normally would (1.33 qts water per lb of grain on this system) & first heat the water in both pots to strike water temp (165F on this system); while simultaneously heating the filled HLT water to mash temp (152F for this style). Lower baskets w/bags after flame-out; add grist; stir & allow temps to stabilize to mash temp; then gravity feed mash temp water from the HLT into both pots until almost full. Mash for an hour stirring occasionally.

I know I'm going to have to sparge; so I had the bags sewn up in a cylinder shape to fit the baskets. The baskets rest a few inches off the bottom of the pots, so I won't need to use the false bottoms on either pot. That will allow me to recirculate with direct heat without scorching if needed to maintain proper mash temps. In the meantime the re-filled HLT water will be heating to 168F with sparge water. When mash time for the style has been satisfied, I'll raise the baskets to drain; and sparge both pots using the March pump to pre-boil volume. I'll document pre-boil gravity; boil for at least an hour depending on style; then adjust as needed for OG.

I've got a few fittings to order before brew day... possibly this upcoming weekend to make thinks go a bit smoother. BIAB won't be replacing my two tier, three kettle, "Ruby Street" RIMS brewing system any time in the near future. However...I don't have any reservations using it to double the volume in the same amount of time on brew day...



A few pics from the backside with pots turned around...

 

[newnick]

Not that it matters much but, I heat the water with the basket and bag already in the pot. That way there is no temp drop from the basket.

 

[GREM]

Not that it matters much but, I heat the water with the basket and bag already in the pot. That way there is no temp drop from the basket.

Makes sense with a basket this size stored in a cold garage . Looks like it's a go for this weekend. I've set aside Saturday to finish up some plumbing to make things ready for brew day on Sunday. Decided to brew up 20 gallons of a dark lager. I saved the yeast from a five gallon batch of Bohemian Pilsner; so about a quart of slurry after decant. It's been stored at 34F for three weeks now. Given the amount of healthy yeast needed for proper fermentation; I'm wondering if a cup of slurry per 5 gal is adequate. Thoughts? Thanks in advance...

grem

 

[GREM]

Parts arrived yesterday so I spent the day tweaking "Ruby" to make tomorrow go as smooth as possible. In the first pic I upgraded the March pump housing to stainless & added a three way valve to the inlet side of the pump. Now I can draw from either kettle with a quarter turn of the valve without unhooking any hoses. This will make both recirculating with heat during mash & sparging much easier.

The second pic shows how I will gravity feed mash temp water to both kettles from the HLT after the grist has been added to initial strike water & temps have stabilized. I will initially start with eight gallons of strike water in each kettle & add water as needed to top off kettles while carefully maintaining proper mash temps.

The third pic shows how I plan on monitoring mash temps. I put together a second "hops spider" and added a second thermometer. (the hose clamp makes for a great way to hold it in place ). It's easy to pick up with one hand while stirring with the other & of course...makes adding hops a breeze after installing a hops bag when it's time to boil:rockin:.

The fourth pic shows how I plan to use the March pump to sparge each basket until desired volume of wort is reached. One hose has to be changed out in order to accept sparge water from the HLT.

The last pic shows how I plan to "chill the wort". The challenge with a lager will be chilling it from boiling to 50 degrees F in a reasonable amount of time. To do that I'll be re-using the HLT & have equipped it with a screen to use as an "ice water bucket". I mounted a water pump to the frame & adapted fittings to transfer cold water thru the chiller plate. If all goes well, I should have 22 gallons of wort fermenting away at lager temps in a few days.

,
grem

 

[GREM]

Sunday went exceptionally well! Even better than expected.

Garage temp was about 40F so I fired up the wood burner & started profiling the water in all three kettles while things warmed up. A couple of my brewing pals showed up around 9:00 am to help. I decided to start with 10 gallons of water in all three 15 gallon kettles. We only milled the grains once; because I knew we were going to be recirculating with direct heat to maintain temps; which on this system brings efficiency way up.

I used an all grain recipe that I tweaked...an easy drinking dark lager with an OG of 1.048. When we finished sparging the bags; the full volume pre boil (about 13 gal) gravity came in at 1.046. After boiling our post boil or OG was 1.054. We pitched the Bohemian Lager yeast I saved from another experimental FV BIAB batch, & split it between the four carboys.

I made an effort to capture some of the day on video; was more consumed with keeping track of everything so it doesn't cover much...just an overview...

Concurrent Double Batch BIAB Video

At the end of the day I still had the same three pots to clean, the same amount of hoses, fittings, buckets, & everything else to clean. I also had to sanitize 4 carboys instead of two; prepare twice as much yeast as normal; & find space to house twice as much fermenting wort . Brew day consisted of about 6 hours from the time we started heating water until the time we put the carboys in the fermentation chamber. Very close to a normal 10 gallon all grain brew day...with an end result of 20 gallons instead of 10 .

In recap...my personal experiments & experiences using BIAB have been very positive & have produced some very good beer. I'm looking forward to brewing up many more...


grem

 

[gizmodog51]

great set up shows some great outa the box thinking.....

i'm trying to do a temp controlled recir using a pump, a ranco temp controller and a HVAC propane water heater module to fire off my burner when temp rise is needed.

considered electric brewing but that element in the wort just turns me off......

nice set up you have ! make mine look like trailer trash.....

GD

 

[GREM]

One of the things I've noticed about using a bag to brew in; is the amount of cloudiness in the wort after it's been chilled to pitch temps. Before I could even brew up this double batch of "Dark Lager", I knew I would need lots of yeast. On 1/18 I brewed up a full volume 5 gallon BIAB batch of Bohemian Pilsner (still experimenting with BIAB) in one of my 15 gallon kettles with the primary purpose of saving enough yeast for the bigger experiment. A week earlier I pitched two packs of WYeast 2124 into a 4 liter starter on a stir plate to build the yeast count. Chilled & then decanted the starter until needed on brew day.

After brewing, it was in primary fermentation for twelve days at 48F followed with two days at 58F for "D" rest. Cold crashed at 33F for one week & racked into a corny keg for secondary. I saved the entire primary yeast cake after washing. This was the yeast we split evenly & pitched in the above video.

Three days ago after lagering in the secondary corny keg at 33F for 25 days, I transferred it into another corny keg using this technique...

Lager Transfer

Today I pulled a sample & was surprised with the clarity as well as the taste. For a Pilsner brewed for the yeast cake...it turned out real good given the short amount of lager time . Can't wait to see what it taste's like in another month...

 

[newnick]

That is a cool set up, for sure. I need to make myself one of those hop spiders. I've used a hop bag before but got away from it, need to start again.

 

[GREM]

I would like to convert to all electric, & yet keep the burners in place for backup. We installed a solar system last year & would like to use electricity to offset the high price of propane.

The garage has 50 amp service & could be dedicated to only that on brew days. Is that enough service to use three 5500 watt heating elements at the same time to get the job done? Ideas & input welcome from those with experience.

Thanks in advance,

 

[GREM]

Both of the Lagers brewed earlier turned out fantastic! So good I've adopted "brewing in a bag" as my preferred method of all grain homebrewing. The Bohemian Pilsner eventually cleaned up so well most think it's a commercial beer. The dark lager is now a house favorite.

I've thought about going electric for some time now & decided "Ruby" would be the perfect donor for "dual purpose" brewing. As a result electricity will be used 95% of the time while in it's dedicated position in the garage. If the opportunity arises to brew in a remote location (like wet hopping at the local hops farm in August) I can roll it into the trailer & use propane for a standard three kettle brew day. The electrician who installed our solar system will be here next week to pull new wires to the garage for 70 amp service & install two dedicated 30 amp outlets for dual controllers. The "double batch BIAB got me to thinking about adding heat elements below the Bayou Classic baskets & came up with some thoughts after a little research.

I started a thread here about how I had the kettles welded up for the fittings. Things have fallen into place like sliced butter & I couldn't be more pleased with the results thus far...

Here's the setup for a double EBIAB. Each kettle has it's own heating element beneath the baskets about a half inch off the bottom of the kettle


I ordered two controllers from Dave at "High Gravity". One is PID controlled specially designed for stand alone BIAB's. Perfect for maintaining desired mash temps. The other is a manual on-off with a manual dial to control the boil & heating up the hot liquor water for sparging


Everything at this point is mocked up & ready to go except mounting the controllers to the wall. Should be ready to "test" brew a batch next week