BIAB Question

[el_caro]

I've done 45, 60 & 90 minute BIAB without the slightest bit of difference, other than wasting some extra time. YMMV.

Which method were you using and what efficiency did you achieve?

 

[Xaphoeous]

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

 

[el_caro]

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

I wonder if it was not the method but rather that your mash temperature was too high resulting in more un-fermentable sugars?

 

[porterguy]

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

I'm pretty sure the Australian site always recommends 90 minute mash, and 90 minute boil.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

#3 is mash with "full volume of water". You had 5 gallons water for 11 lb grain. Grain typically removes 0.1-0.2 gallons per lb. So, your 11 lbs removed, say, 11 * 0.15 = 1.65 gal, putting you down around 3.5 gallons of runnings. You added 1 gal of water to get up to 4.5 gallons...

How you ended up with only 4.5 gallons post boil escapes me. But adding water to get up to a boil volume, (without even "sparging" the water through the grains), will KILL your efficiency into the fermenter.

Only thing I know is, if you're doing #3, you should have a lot more water....like 7.5-8 gallons water. If you want 5 gallons in the end, and you boil off 1 gallon, and your grain absorbs 1.5 gallons, (and assuming a 0.5 gallon trub loss from the BK), that's 5 + 1 + 1.5 + 0.5 = 8 gallons.

 

[pvtschultz]

I start with 6.5 gallons of water for a five gallon batch and hit five gallons post-boil on the nuts about every time with BiaB. Grain absorption is not that great with BiaB since you can squeeze/drain a lot of the wort out from the spent grains.

I generally get 68%-72% brew house efficiency pretty consistently, higher with lighter grain bills and lower with heavier bills. I dump everything from the BK into the fermentor to save that extra 1/2 gallon or so. That break material makes for good yeast nutrients if you ask me.

 

[el_caro]

I start with 6.5 gallons of water for a five gallon batch and hit five gallons post-boil on the nuts about every time with BiaB. Grain absorption is not that great with BiaB since you can squeeze/drain a lot of the wort out from the spent grains.

I generally get 68%-72% brew house efficiency pretty consistently, higher with lighter grain bills and lower with heavier bills. I dump everything from the BK into the fermentor to save that extra 1/2 gallon or so. That break material makes for good yeast nutrients if you ask me.

Which of the 3 methods best describes the way you BIAB?
1. Mash for 60mins in lower volumes of water much like conventional 3V brewing then dunk sparge for 10 mins in separate vessel with the balance of the water.

2. Dispense with the sparge completely and just mash in the full volume of water for around 90mins.

3. Mash in full volume of water for 60mins then do a mash out at say 170°F for 10mins.

 

[RM-MN]

Which of the 3 methods best describes the way you BIAB?
1. Mash for 60mins in lower volumes of water much like conventional 3V brewing then dunk sparge for 10 mins in separate vessel with the balance of the water.

2. Dispense with the sparge completely and just mash in the full volume of water for around 90mins.

3. Mash in full volume of water for 60mins then do a mash out at say 170°F for 10mins.

Really none of the above. I mash in to the full volume if I have room in the pot for all the water plus the grain. If I have too large of a grain bill I will reduce the amount of water so it will all fit and then do a pour through sparge when I remove the grain to get to the full volume. If your grain is crushed or ground fine enough you certainly do not need a 90 minute mash. I have never used a mash out as I squeeze the bag of grain to get all the possible wort out and with the recipes I use there isn't any need to mash out. The wort remains in the original pot and is brought to boil as soon as possible which denatures the enzymes.

 

[kcross13]

sparge that water with the extra gallon. It will add to your sugars

 

[Seven]

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

• Mashing at 158-160 F. sounds too high. Is this what the recipe called for?
• With method 3 you mash (and sparge) at the same time with the full volume of water required for your recipe. You don't add any extra water or top-up water when doing method number 3.
• To calculate brewhouse efficiency you need to know your pre-boil wort volume. How did you calculate your efficiency without this pre-boil volume info?

 

[pvtschultz]

I use method #3 primarily and then top off with water post boil if I need to adjust my gravity some. The lowest efficiency that I've gotten was 65% with a 12# grain bill and I generally get right at 70% with 10#-11# grain bills. I try not to get caught up on efficiencies as long as it is consistent and my beers taste good. The dollar or two extra for grain to make up for lower efficiency doesn't bother me on the 5-gallon production scale...

 

[pianobrew]

I do more of a brew in a sheet process. I bought a voile curtain from target for $5 and drape it over my kettle as I mash in and let the weight of the grain pull the sheet down. As I am resting I tighten it up around the kettle and twist it so it all is bundled into one area. This will make it a lot easier to pull the grain out. The sheet is very big. I could have lifted up my 12 lb grain bill with my pinky. You don't have to deal with knitting a bag or buying a more expensive and less fine of a bag that they sell at Homebrew shops.

You cannot tell me that you can make a mash tun for $5 or less.

 

[Seven]

I use method #3 primarily and then top off with water post boil if I need to adjust my gravity some. The lowest efficiency that I've gotten was 65% with a 12# grain bill and I generally get right at 70% with 10#-11# grain bills. I try not to get caught up on efficiencies as long as it is consistent and my beers taste good. The dollar or two extra for grain to make up for lower efficiency doesn't bother me on the 5-gallon production scale...

+1

Adding water to reduce gravity should be fine. I agree with you about not worrying too much about efficiency as a homebrewer. Big commercial breweries are the ones that would benefit by being as efficient as possible. It's not so much of an issue with small (5 or 10 gallon) batches.

 

[Xaphoeous]

• Mashing at 158-160 F. sounds too high. Is this what the recipe called for?
• With method 3 you mash (and sparge) at the same time with the full volume of water required for your recipe. You don't add any extra water or top-up water when doing method number 3.
• To calculate brewhouse efficiency you need to know your pre-boil wort volume. How did you calculate your efficiency without this pre-boil volume info?

The guy at the LHBS said to mash at about 158.

My kettle is only 8 gallons, so I'm not sure I could have fit 11 pounds of grain and 6.5 gallons of water. I also used a 5-gallon paint strainer bag for the grains, which might have held them all too tightly together.

Well, I suppose you're right, I can't have calculated it properly. I just took my post-boil gravity and volume, plugged them into Brewsmith (on the recipe page, not in the brewhouse efficiency calculator) and used trial and error in the efficiency field until the estimated OG matched my actual OG.

 

[nu2brewing]

3. Mash in full volume of water for 60mins then do a mash out at say 170°F for 10mins.

I utilize option #3 and get upper 70's to lower 80's efficiency.

 

[Seven]

The guy at the LHBS said to mash at about 158.

My kettle is only 8 gallons, so I'm not sure I could have fit 11 pounds of grain and 6.5 gallons of water. I also used a 5-gallon paint strainer bag for the grains, which might have held them all too tightly together.

Well, I suppose you're right, I can't have calculated it properly. I just took my post-boil gravity and volume, plugged them into Brewsmith (on the recipe page, not in the brewhouse efficiency calculator) and used trial and error in the efficiency field until the estimated OG matched my actual OG.

Since you can't fit all of the water into your kettle at once - I would recommend trying method #1. Many people use the dunk-sparge method with much success.

 

[C-Rider]

I'm doing 1.75 gallon batches fermenting in a 2 gallon paint bucket.
I mash in a 5 gallon cooler usually 4.5 lbs of grain in 2.75 gallons water.
I squeeze the hell out of the bag and w/the small amt of grain I can do a good job of draining the liquid out of the grain
Post boil vol is usually about 2.8 gallons.

I've been getting about 75% eff.

 

[Catawampus]

I do no-sparge, no mash out, BIAB in 5 gallon cooler. I usually do 2 or 3 gallon batches, and my experience mirrors this. I consistently get 70-75% efficiency. The only deviation I have noticed is that I tend to get slightly less efficient (~65-68%) when using wheat. Other than that, works great.

I'm doing 1.75 gallon batches fermenting in a 2 gallon paint bucket.
I mash in a 5 gallon cooler usually 4.5 lbs of grain in 2.75 gallons water.
I squeeze the hell out of the bag and w/the small amt of grain I can do a good job of draining the liquid out of the grain
Post boil vol is usually about 2.8 gallons.

I've been getting about 75% eff.

 

[Xaphoeous]

Since you can't fit all of the water into your kettle at once - I would recommend trying method #1. Many people use the dunk-sparge method with much success.

Method #1 was my initial plan...but I have just one 8gallon kettle. I have no other pots large enough for all that grain and water for a dunk-sparge.

 

[Xaphoeous]

Also, how do you guys measure your pre-boil volume? Is it a guess, or do you have graduated measurement lines in your kettle?

 

[C-Rider]

Also, how do you guys measure your pre-boil volume? Is it a guess, or do you have graduated measurement lines in your kettle?

I have a length of 1/2 inch PVC pipe that I marked off in 1/4 gallon measurements.

 

[Xaphoeous]

I have a length of 1/2 inch PVC pipe that I marked off in 1/4 gallon measurements.

Simple, yet brilliant. This is why I'm not an engineer or inventor. I'm a financial analyst, I work with what is presented before me but I don't come up with anything new.

 

[1MadScientist]

Well, I'm getting 99.5% conversion efficiency anyway, not much room to improve there.

a No Sparge Full Volume BIAB will get you about 83% into the boil efficiency if you squeeze the bag.

You could sparge and maybe reduce your grain requirements by half a pound or something...

But once you go no-sparge, you realize what a PITA a sparge step is

Its only when you try to do a Maxi brew that a sparge really comes into its own as you will be bumping your Into Boil efficiency from 60-70% to 80%

The BIABrewer.info method is :

1) Full Volume Mash for 90 minutes. Because the mash is thinner, it can take longer to convert
2) Mashout + Squeeze. Helps efficiency
3) Boil for 90 minutes. More boil-off gives you more Mash water which gets you more efficiency too.

This will get you about 83% Into Boil for normal gravity 5 gallon brews.

Hello stux and hello to HBT -- I thought the biabrewer.info was a big advocate for efficiency into the fermenter and felt it strange you saying 'into boil efficiency'. Anyway my Beer Tools Pro keys off of original gravity 'into fermenter'.

I heard of biabrewer.info from here and then joined your board too where I learned about BIAB more.

What every happened to that new 'The Calculator' that was being developed? I was following the version updates and poof it was gone.

 

[el_caro]

I'm doing 1.75 gallon batches fermenting in a 2 gallon paint bucket.
I mash in a 5 gallon cooler usually 4.5 lbs of grain in 2.75 gallons water.
I squeeze the hell out of the bag and w/the small amt of grain I can do a good job of draining the liquid out of the grain
Post boil vol is usually about 2.8 gallons.

I've been getting about 75% eff.

I guess method #1 would best describe your process? I assume you dunk sparge in the brew kettle with the balance of the pre-boil volume water?

 

[1MadScientist]

el_caro, What size pot(s) do you use on brew day and method #?

 

[el_caro]

el_caro, What size pot(s) do you use on brew day and method #?

I am relatively new to BIAB only been doing it for about 7 brews.

I started out with Death Brewer's method for partial mash and then progressed to his All Grain method and did a few brews using a 16.5L s/s pot and an 8L s/s pot. Guess we will call this method #1. It has turned out some nice brews.
I now have added a 36L s/s pot to the stable which has given me greater flexibility and am tossing up which of the 3 methods to use.

From the replies to date it seems that methods #1 and #3 are about equally popular and reported efficiency does not seem to vary much across the methods. I am thinking I will continue with #1 mashing in my 16.5L pot then sparging the bag in the 36L kettle to which I will then add the mash liquor.

My 16.5L pot fits nicely in the preheated oven and I can maintain mash temperature within a degree with no difficulty.

 

[stux]

Hello stux and hello to HBT -- I thought the biabrewer.info was a big advocate for efficiency into the fermenter and felt it strange you saying 'into boil efficiency'. Anyway my Beer Tools Pro keys off of original gravity 'into fermenter'.

Well, as far as I'm aware, BIABrewer has always advocated Into Boil/Into Kettle etc efficiency, as that doesn't vary greatly from brewer to brewer, where as the Into Fermenter efficiency greatly depends on individual brewers practises and equipment

The thing is with Full-volume No Sparge BIAB the Mash Efficiency and Into Boil and End of Boil Efficiencies should all be about the same. Which means if you measure your gravity pre and post boil along with your volumes you get a neat double-check on your efficiency.

In traditional calculators, the efficiency figure is used to predict the grainbill size, which is then used to predict the water volumes.

I heard of biabrewer.info from here and then joined your board too where I learned about BIAB more.

What every happened to that new 'The Calculator' that was being developed? I was following the version updates and poof it was gone.

A version of the new calculator is currently in beta testing

And independently of that, I've been working on a new approach to biab estimates which isn't based on you knowing your "Into Boil" or "Into Fermenter" efficiencies, and its working very well

 

[stux]

I've done a fair bit of research into BIAB using Conversion Efficiency and Weight of Extract to derive efficiency values Into Fermenter and Into Boil

Results:
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1066&p=14788#p14451


Basically, if you use less strike water than full volume, you get less efficiency into the kettle. You can counteract this by sparging.

With full volume BIAB, unless you have a relatively large grain bill, the efficiency into boil is good enough, that most people wouldn't need to sparge, which vastly simplifies things. The problem is, you need a big pot

Pretty Graphs at Link

 

[BurntOrngeLonghorn84]

In the second method he sparges by pouring water from a kettle over the bag into a bucket

This is my method.

1.) 60 minute mash (typically 5 gallons)
2.) heat sparge water (typically 2 gallons) to 175
3.) Rinse grain above boil kettle
4.) SQUEEZE!
5.) Start boil process...

I dont really have alot of hard numbers proof on why I do it the way I do, but I do have alot of great beers...

 

[el_caro]

I've done a fair bit of research into BIAB using Conversion Efficiency and Weight of Extract to derive efficiency values Into Fermenter and Into Boil

Results:
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=1066&p=14788#p14451


Basically, if you use less strike water than full volume, you get less efficiency into the kettle. You can counteract this by sparging.

With full volume BIAB, unless you have a relatively large grain bill, the efficiency into boil is good enough, that most people wouldn't need to sparge, which vastly simplifies things. The problem is, you need a big pot

Pretty Graphs at Link

Nice work Stux.
Assuming you had a large enough pot to mash with full volume BIAB, would you do a mash-out or just mash and immediately squeeze and dump the grain?