Bière de Garde

[latProd]

Hi guys, thinking of making one of these traditional french farm house ales. I'm trying a recipe creatred by a local homebrew guru in my country. Is there anyone who's got any kind of experience with this style?
I was playing around with the idea of making an India version of it, just looking for input if you have any thoughts.

 

[ac22rush]

Maybe you could describe your ideas and we could give you feedback? I know there are some guys on here myself included who have a love for french ales.

 

[giraffe]

And "india" version would kind of miss the point. This is a malty aged style. I love them and make them often. There is a wide variance in commercial examples. The biggest thing for me, is to make them malty, but finish quite dry, and to age them long enough. Use a continental relatively neutral yeast to ferment. wlp011, wyeast1007, wlp515, wlp072, etc. Some use lager yeasts, i didnt prefer that.

 

[latProd]

And "india" version would kind of miss the point. This is a malty aged style. I love them and make them often. There is a wide variance in commercial examples. The biggest thing for me, is to make them malty, but finish quite dry, and to age them long enough. Use a continental relatively neutral yeast to ferment. wlp011, wyeast1007, wlp515, wlp072, etc. Some use lager yeasts, i didnt prefer that.

Yeah, I know, I know I am definately going for wlp011 in this, and a combination of pilsner malt and dark munchener malt. I plan to use Fuggles hops for bittering (although I know, they are not typical bitter hops).
My idea was to add some willamette late in the boil to give it a slighly earthy hoppy overtone, but if this seems like a bad idea I can just abandon that and go for a classic true to style ale.
My plan, like you said, is to make sure they finish dry. I am going for the maltiness, but I don't want any residual sweetness in it. So I plan to mash it on a relatively low temp.
Do you mind sharing your mash technique and at what temps you ferment it?

And thanks for answering btw!

 

[latProd]

Maybe you could describe your ideas and we could give you feedback? I know there are some guys on here myself included who have a love for french ales.

Yeah, thanks I've outlined my ideas, any suggestions are certainly welcome as I have never brewed it before.

 

[giraffe]

You may be able to work off of the biere de mars type of biere de garde, its comparatively alot hoppier-- I thought you were going to dry hop it with 3 oz of chinook or something. Some willamette is fine, remember it will mostly fade with aging.

As for mashing it depends on the yeast strain, and grain bill, it shoud start malty and finish dry. A less attenuative strain with alot of munich, like wlp011, id mash at 147 or so. A more attenuative strain higher, around 150, and maybe add 5-10% sugar if its higher gravity. I usually do a rest at 131, but it depends on your base malt.

It depends on the yeast strain, but in general 60-64, on the cool side. Pitch plenty of yeast and aerate well. wlp011 can be finicky. You may need to rouse it if it drops early.

 

[serum]

I'd agree an India version is a bad idea.

I've been drinking a ton of these lately and although the hops aren't the key thing, my favourite amber (Jenlain Ambree) does have a little more hop bitterness than most which gives it a longer lasting finish. Some of the ones I've tried that aren't bitter enough just fade away after a few seconds.

I don't think using US or new world hops for aroma would complement this style at all as it's all about the malt flavour. A mix of pilsner and munich sounds right. Different brands seem to use different blends. Jenlain seemed a little less sweet than some which made it more refreshing.

 

[latProd]

You may be able to work off of the biere de mars type of biere de garde, its comparatively alot hoppier-- I thought you were going to dry hop it with 3 oz of chinook or something. Some willamette is fine, remember it will mostly fade with aging.

As for mashing it depends on the yeast strain, and grain bill, it shoud start malty and finish dry. A less attenuative strain with alot of munich, like wlp011, id mash at 147 or so. A more attenuative strain higher, around 150, and maybe add 5-10% sugar if its higher gravity. I usually do a rest at 131, but it depends on your base malt.

It depends on the yeast strain, but in general 60-64, on the cool side. Pitch plenty of yeast and aerate well. wlp011 can be finicky. You may need to rouse it if it drops early.

Haha no, not that bad, that would be a bit weird. I was just thinking of adding some willamette @30 and @15 maybe, something like that.
Thanks for the mash tips, the recipe I'm using as a base requires a little sugar as well as 25grams of black malt, for color. My wish is just that it becomes dry and not sweet. I thought a little more bittering and a tang of willammette might help with that Not dry hopping with chinook

 

[latProd]

I'd agree an India version is a bad idea.

I've been drinking a ton of these lately and although the hops aren't the key thing, my favourite amber (Jenlain Ambree) does have a little more hop bitterness than most which gives it a longer lasting finish. Some of the ones I've tried that aren't bitter enough just fade away after a few seconds.

I don't think using US or new world hops for aroma would complement this style at all as it's all about the malt flavour. A mix of pilsner and munich sounds right. Different brands seem to use different blends. Jenlain seemed a little less sweet than some which made it more refreshing.

The problem is that it is not available commercially over here, not a market for it I think, so I'm gonna have to go by lots of research and the fantastic info I get from you guys.

 

[serum]

The problem is that it is not available commercially over here, not a market for it I think, so I'm gonna have to go by lots of research and the fantastic info I get from you guys.

It's pretty hard to get anywhere outside the local areas where they make it. Not sure if the shipping is worth it where you live but I use this place to get them to the UK:

http://www.saveur-biere.com/en/

I'd definitely advise trying to get some if you can just so you know what you're aiming for. Reading peoples' tasting notes never really does a beer justice!

 

[latProd]

It's pretty hard to get anywhere outside the local areas where they make it. Not sure if the shipping is worth it where you live but I use this place to get them to the UK:

http://www.saveur-biere.com/en/

I'd definitely advise trying to get some if you can just so you know what you're aiming for. Reading peoples' tasting notes never really does a beer justice!

Man that site looks awesome, Wish i lived in France

 

[latProd]

It's pretty hard to get anywhere outside the local areas where they make it. Not sure if the shipping is worth it where you live but I use this place to get them to the UK:

http://www.saveur-biere.com/en/

I'd definitely advise trying to get some if you can just so you know what you're aiming for. Reading peoples' tasting notes never really does a beer justice!

Truer words have never been spoken!
Checked the link and did a test order, seems 5 bottles will set me back about 50 euros including shipping. So that's about 10 euros a bottle not to mention the import taxes. Alcohol is highly taxed here in norway

 

[serum]

Truer words have never been spoken!
Checked the link and did a test order, seems 5 bottles will set me back about 50 euros including shipping. So that's about 10 euros a bottle not to mention the import taxes. Alcohol is highly taxed here in norway

The transport costs are quite expensive to begin with but then gradually reduce if you order more. I did an order of 12 bottles and 2 glasses and the cost wasn't much more than if I was to order half as much. It's a bit of a killer but about the only way of doing it. I feel your pain though!

 

[latProd]

The transport costs are quite expensive to begin with but then gradually reduce if you order more. I did an order of 12 bottles and 2 glasses and the cost wasn't much more than if I was to order half as much. It's a bit of a killer but about the only way of doing it. I feel your pain though!

to be honest, I think I'm gonna go ahead and order anyway This style is fascinating, so I just gotta do it.

aaaand I no longer have 50 euros! five bottles on the way, including the ambre that you suggested. thanks for that!

 

[serum]

to be honest, I think I'm gonna go ahead and order anyway This style is fascinating, so I just gotta do it.

aaaand I no longer have 50 euros! five bottles on the way, including the ambre that you suggested. thanks for that!

Good stuff, what else did you go for?

My favourites so far are Blonde D'Esquelbecq, Gavroche and 3 Monts but I've still got quite a few bottles to try from my order from there.

The ones from Thiriez and Brasserie Au Baron are bottle conditioned so the 75cl bottles are ideal for yeast growing.

 

[latProd]

Good stuff, what else did you go for?

My favourites so far are Blonde D'Esquelbecq, Gavroche and 3 Monts but I've still got quite a few bottles to try from my order from there.

The ones from Thiriez and Brasserie Au Baron are bottle conditioned so the 75cl bottles are ideal for yeast growing.

I ordered:
Comtesse Des Flandres
3 Monts Grande Réserve
Jenlain Ambrée - 75cl x2
Jenlain Blonde 75cl


Random selection really, just to sample a small selection.
Would be interesting to try growing the yeast, though I have limited experience with yeast starters.


I also saw this on the receipt, what's the deal with that?


Subscription to the Club 1 2,08 € 2,08 €
-- Insurance 1 2,49 € 2,49 €

 

[serum]

Not sure about those costs. I have a bottle of 3 months Grande reserve, can't wait to try it as the plain one is excellent.

 

[giraffe]

The jenlain yeast is available seasonally as wlp072. Brassiere Theirez's yeast is available as wyeast3711, but they are a small producer, and their beers are a bit of an outlier. Wyeasts biere de garde strain is a cleaner primary strain from a belgian brewery. Its not my favorite.

Jenlain is not my favorite of the ones ive tried, its mostly pils malt and black malt for color. Also, some biere de garde producers use very long boils to develop color and some kettle caramelization. I often do a 2-4 hour boil in amber styles.

Some finishing hops isnt that out of style, just stick to noble-ish or golding/fuggle-ish (like willamette) and use a light hand.

 

[latProd]

The jenlain yeast is available seasonally as wlp072. Brassiere Theirez's yeast is available as wyeast3711, but they are a small producer, and their beers are a bit of an outlier. Wyeasts biere de garde strain is a cleaner primary strain from a belgian brewery. Its not my favorite.

Jenlain is not my favorite of the ones ive tried, its mostly pils malt and black malt for color. Also, some biere de garde producers use very long boils to develop color and some kettle caramelization. I often do a 2-4 hour boil in amber styles.

Some finishing hops isnt that out of style, just stick to noble-ish or golding/fuggle-ish (like willamette) and use a light hand.

Thanks for all the advice, probably gonna brew this next week after tasting the selection i ordered. How much is a "light" hand for a typical 5 gallon batch? I was thinking maybe two late hop additions of willammette, 20 grams per addition approx.

 

[giraffe]

Id go 10-15 grams each personally, but if you age it for 9 months, it will hardly matter.

 

[latProd]

Id go 10-15 grams each addittion personally, but if you age it for 9 months, it will hardly matter.

Thanks, I doubt I will age it for 9 months, I don't have that kind of willpower