best way to back sweeten hard cider

[Bhunter87]

Well, that's completely incorrect. BUT I'm not here to argue! If that's your experience and your belief, that's cool.

I'm just trying to get it clear for people who may be new cider or winemakers. Dry= opposite of sweet in ALL wine/cider/meadmaking terms. Maybe in Normandy they're speaking a different language? Dry, as in not sweet, is a well recognized term in winemaking. A dry cider is NOT sweet. Dry is most often defined as .990-1.000.

Yeah, you're wrong. I don't want to argue either, but 'dry' is a mouth feel, 'sweet' is a taste. I've done 3rd wave coffee for years and I can tell you, dry and sweet are not antonyms.

Yes, a lack of sweet makes your bev dry, but its the lack of natural sugars that create the dryness. you can back sweeten all you want and it will still have the sharp dry mouth feel...

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, you're wrong. I don't want to argue either, but 'dry' is a mouth feel, 'sweet' is a taste. I've done 3rd wave coffee for years and I can tell you, dry and sweet are not antonyms.

I don't know wtf "third wave coffee" is and what it has to do with wine/mead/cider, but it terms of making fermented beverage, Sweet and DRY are antonyms.

Here's the definition from 3 randomly selected online wine dictonaries, if you're not satisfied I can fill this post with 50 or more quotes substantiating this as well.

Dry:
Not sweet,
in the same way that "cold" means not hot...

hmmm...sounds like the opposite to me.

More.

Wine Terms: Dry

This term refers to the amount of sugar in a wine after fermentation. Dry wine types have sugars that have all been used up to create alcohol. Sweet wine types have not used up all of their sugars to create alcohol. Sweet is commonly confused with fruity but if you try any typical red wine or white wine and compare it to a dessert wine you will taste the difference between this and a fruity drier wine. This is not about the fruitiness of a wine but its sweetness.


Tasting:
Pick a red or a white wine, such as Cabernet Sauvignon, or Sauvignon Blanc.
Pick a dessert wine or a fortified wine. I would recommend a Muscat Canelli, or a Port, for instance.
Both have distinctly fruity flavors but you will see that the red or white wine lack the sweetness of the dessert wine.

Dry - The opposite of sweet when describing wines. Sweetness is tasted on the front of the tongue and starts to become noticeable to most people when the residual sugar is above 1%.

I'm just sayin.......

 

[Pappers_]

Yeah, you're wrong. I don't want to argue either, but 'dry' is a mouth feel, 'sweet' is a taste. I've done 3rd wave coffee for years and I can tell you, dry and sweet are not antonyms.

Yes, a lack of sweet makes your bev dry, but its the lack of natural sugars that create the dryness. you can back sweeten all you want and it will still have the sharp dry mouth feel...

In common usage, for beer, wine and cider, dry is the opposite of sweet.

 

[emjay]

Yeah, you're wrong. I don't want to argue either, but 'dry' is a mouth feel, 'sweet' is a taste. I've done 3rd wave coffee for years and I can tell you, dry and sweet are not antonyms.

Yes, a lack of sweet makes your bev dry, but its the lack of natural sugars that create the dryness. you can back sweeten all you want and it will still have the sharp dry mouth feel...

Nope. There's very little, if any, difference between sugars left over after fermentation, and sugars that have been added - depending on the sugar(s) added, of course.

That "dry" mouthfeel you're talking about is likely what's referred to as astringency, not dryness.

You validated your stance by saying that bitter, instead of dry, is the opposite of sweet. Absolutely untrue. Sweetness and bitterness are sensed by entirely different receptors. Sweetness and bitterness can both exist side-by-side, although we perceive this as balanced. For example, just because water is not sweet, does not make it bitter.

So when referring to beer/wine/cider/etc, dry (rather than bitter) refers to a lack of sugars, since an absence of sugar doesn't make something bitter - the presence of compounds that activate the bitterness receptors on the tongue is what makes something bitter.

 

[DMartin]

Yeah, you're wrong.

HBT Rule of Thumb: Yooper knows what she's talking about until conclusively and exhaustively proven otherwise.

 

[Bhunter87]

I don't know wtf "third wave coffee" is and what it has to do with wine/mead/cider, but it terms of making fermented beverage, Sweet and DRY are antonyms.

Here's the definition from 3 randomly selected online wine dictonaries, if you're not satisfied I can fill this post with 50 or more quotes substantiating this as well.

hmmm...sounds like the opposite to me.

More.

I'm just sayin.......

"Cider almost always comes from apples. As with wine, the modifier "dry" means that the natural sugar has been fermented out. And, of course, the use of that word "fermented" means that it is alcoholic. Dry cider, then, is hard cider that contains between 5% and 7% alcohol. It is often clear. It is particularly popular in Britain and Ireland.

Dry cider is more popular as a beverage than as an ingredient for recipes. It is drunk on its own or used in mixed drinks. Because not everyone likes a sugarless cider, some distillers add sugar when they bottle it, but they still call it dry cider. Go figure."


Thhheeeyyyy aaaaddddddd ssssuuuggaaarrr and it's still drryyyyyy

If you have a really dry wine, you can put so much sugar in it that it turns to syrup and it will STILL have the dry mouthfeel.

Third-wave coffee is specialty coffee. Find a really nice shop around you that has direct trade coffee and go talk to them. If you're into wine, coffee would blow you away

 

[Bhunter87]

Nope. There's very little, if any, difference between sugars left over after fermentation, and sugars that have been added - depending on the sugar(s) added, of course.

That "dry" mouthfeel you're talking about is likely what's referred to as astringency, not dryness.

You validated your stance by saying that bitter, instead of dry, is the opposite of sweet. Absolutely untrue. Sweetness and bitterness are sensed by entirely different receptors. Sweetness and bitterness can both exist side-by-side, although we perceive this as balanced. For example, just because water is not sweet, does not make it bitter.

So when referring to beer/wine/cider/etc, dry (rather than bitter) refers to a lack of sugars, since an absence of sugar doesn't make something bitter - the presence of compounds that activate the bitterness receptors on the tongue is what makes something bitter.

I never said the word "bitter"...

 

[emjay]

I never said the word "bitter"...

My bad, that was KWKSLVR. Didn't realize there were 2 dead-wrong people.

 

[emjay]

but they still call it dry cider. Go figure."

Thhheeeyyyy aaaaddddddd ssssuuuggaaarrr and it's still drryyyyyy

If you have a really dry wine, you can put so much sugar in it that it turns to syrup and it will STILL have the dry mouthfeel.

Assuming that quote's correct, it never said that it's still dry. It says they still call it "dry cider", which is a big difference. I'm willing to buy that they refer to it as "dry cider", but that's still not what dry actually means.

And again, that "dry" mouthfeel is referred to as astringency, not dryness. And in fact, having sugar added back in after the fact will not magically give it a different mouthfeel than the same amount of sugar being left over from fermentation...

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Yeah, you're wrong.

HBT Rule of Thumb: Yooper knows what she's talking about until conclusively and exhaustively proven otherwise.

SWMBO ... She Who Moderates Brewing Offenses

 

[CidahMastah]

It is getting heated in here

well my hard cider is ready to come out of the carboy and goin into my 5 gallon keg... my question is i like my hard cider sweet like wood chuck style.. what would be the best way to sweeten it up , this is my frist time doing a hard cider so i just figured it would be best to ask before i do to make sure i dont screw anything up

Potassium sorbate doesn't kill yeast, it inhibits yeast reproduction. Sulfites suppress yeast and can kill weaker yeasts (but not usually brewer/wine yeasts) - unless used in copious amounts they won't ever stop an active fermentation.

If you want to back sweeten effectively do the following:

1. cold crash your cider for 24-48 hours to get the yeast to drop out of suspension.
2. Rack cider onto 1/4 tsp per gal into a bottling bucket
3. back sweeten with (sugar, AJ concentrate, Cider, etc) to taste.
4. Add malic acid to taste if needed
5. Once you have the flavor you want, add 1 Kmeta (cambden tablet) per gallon and mix in without aerating.

This will give you a dry still cider that is stable. If you want to carbonate your cider (draft woodchuck) you can rack this into a keg and force cab for a draft cider. Or if you don't ahve a keg system see papper's sticky on how to bottle carb and then pasteurize.

 

[MarkKF]

If you want to carbonate your cider (draft woodchuck) you can rack this into a keg and force cab for a draft cider. Or if you don't ahve a keg system see papper's sticky on how to bottle carb and then pasteurize.

But if I sweeten and bottle then pasteurize won't the sweet convert to bubbles?

 

[UpstateMike]

If you want to carbonate your cider (draft woodchuck) you can rack this into a keg and force cab for a draft cider. Or if you don't ahve a keg system see papper's sticky on how to bottle carb and then pasteurize.

But if I sweeten and bottle then pasteurize won't the sweet convert to bubbles?

No, not if you pasteurize immediately. If you wait (3 days, a week, hard to say without knowing how much you backsweeten) then the bottles will carb up untill you pasteurize.

 

[CidahMastah]

But if I sweeten and bottle then pasteurize won't the sweet convert to bubbles?

pasteurizing kills the yeast - hence no ability to convert the sugar into carbonation via fermentation if you sweeten then past. right away. Read pappers thread for a better understanding of this.

 

[bbarnes]

How about filtering to remove yeast. Has anyone filtered their cider short of dryness and than force carbed? If so what were your results flavor, feel etc? I have a bunch fermenting and I may experiment a little.

 

[phaem]

I'm a little reluctant to address the filtration querry; I've only filtered a couple 6 gallon batches. I do recall at least one other person on this forum uses a filter, a rather fancy unit with reusable cartridges. I got a mini-jet filter precisely to remove yeast and leave residual sugar. The first batch I stopped at 1.02 FG, the second was a cyser stopped at 1.028. Both were cold crashed (Safale S-04 on the first and Wyeast 3056 on the second batch - Cville's wonderful sticky thread), I let them clear (somewhat) at 32 degrees F and put them through a 1 micron (nominal) filter. After standing for a few days I put them through the 'sterilizing' 0.5 micron filter straight into a keg. The first batch was bottled within 2 days of kegging about a month ago and still has the light carbonation I gave it back then. It's clear as glass and delicious with no sediment, but it was made with home-squeezed apples which include some pretty nice varieties like kingston black, golden delicious, dabinette, wickson etc so how could it not be delicious? The second batch is in keg and pressure has been steady for the past two weeks at room temperature. I didn't compare taste side-by-side before and after filtration. Cold crashing now is 6 gallons I got a wild hair and added 3 quarts of frozen peaches I picked last summer - I dumped them in at 32 degrees so they won't ferment (Safale S-04 again, it'll be FG around 1.02 if I ever get around to checking it after the peaches). I'm wondering how that one's going to filter - it sure got some extra haze from the peaches.

 

[bbarnes]

That sounds about right. I too have a mini-jet filter and will more than likely do the same with my batch of pressed cider (winesap, grannys, goldens, reds and a bunch of crabs in washington state). I also added some tanin to see what the outcome would be. I was thinking cold crash this stuff, filter it and than either add some honey for sweetness of leave as is right before bottling. Will make a still sweet cider. I may keg some and carb it too.

 

[CidahMastah]

Phaem - awesome that you are playing with kingston blacks! I just planted 4 of them in my miniorchard but doesn't expect to get any fruit out of them for 4-5 years. Have about just over 35 trees total. Are these your own personal apple trees?

 

[phaem]

I put in a few acres of apples some years back largely for aesthetic considerations - big apple trees can be quite beautiful IMHO. Most I hand grafted on Antonovka, a seedling rootstock. All have been largely neglected beyond a bit of pruning every 4 years or so. I selected mostly old varieties and included some bitter and bittersweet varieties just in case one found the need to ferment. A few of the varieties were not adapted to the particular climate/disease/neglect combination my farm provides and have died - such as Cox and Spitzenburg. Kidd's orange provides that unique cox flavor, though, and does pretty well.

Kingston in my hands yields a pretty outstanding single variety sweet cider. I mistyped my previous post - I don't even have golden delicious. I have a number of golden russets, though, which make truly outstanding single variety sweet cider. They do well in Iowa and hold their quality after frost so you can harvest for some time at the end of the season in our climate. Wickson is nearly as good for holding after frost. My ciders seem to pH around 3.4 and top 1.06 SG, but I gave every tree quite a bit of space so they might get a bit more sunlight than in a more commercial setting.

If I were planting trees for cider and was interested in knock-your-socks-off flavor without a lot of thinking then golden russet would be the tree. It's vigor is a notch or two higher than most other varieties, so a person might want it on rootstock a bit more dwarfing than other trees. On Mark rootstock its about 12 feet tall, on Antonovka its about 25 feet - I can't harvest the top with my pole-picker. It yields less cider per bushel than others too, but the crops are reliable and it gives you plenty of time to harvest them. Easily my favorite of the 30 or so varieties I have.

In case I haven't bored or offended everyone to death, Hawaii is my current favorite for fresh eating despite the great taste of Kidd's orange. Hawaii has a clean complex flavor and the fruit seem to stay clean despite my management style with heavy doses of neglect. Every press-blend of cider I make contains some Pound Sweet because this tree yields massive amounts of huge apples that yield tons of juice. Too easy to make, this cider is cloying sweet and lacks character but it can bulk up blends and help to extract flavor from other apples in the press.

 

[CidahMastah]

You won't bore me with apple talk!

I went the route of several semi dwarfing rootstocks for most of my trees. Majority of the trees were M7 rootsock and I planted a handful of standards (love the aesthetics of the big trees) and tried some G30 and a G11/MM111 too. There was one other rootstock I tried as well but I can't recall it off hand. I would really like to start trying grafting myself. However most of the trees that I would want to take cuttings from aren't as big as I would like them to be!

Oddly both my cox orange pippin's didn't make it through the summer so I am retrying next spring with them. However, I only had 3 for the 24 or so trees I planted last spring die, so that isn't too bad all things considered.

I think that as long as you can make good sweet drinking cider you have half the battle won. Going for vintage ciders, while interesting and fun to chase isn't nearly as important to me (yet) as being able to produce a good still, draft and sweet drinking (fermented cider). Don't get me wrong, when my ingston blacks, yarlington mills, frequin rouge, bulmers normans, etc. come into their own I will be all about it. Unfortunately for now I have to hit up local orchards for the bulk of my pressing (only have 4 mature trees (mac/two nrothern spies and 1 red delicious)).

 

[phaem]

You must have a good bit of space to drop in over 2 dozen near-standard size trees. Hopefully they won't all yield real well, or you are OK with wasting lots of apples, or you have lots of energy to press. It takes me quite a while to hand-pick and press 50 gallons and that gets but a small fraction of the available fruit most years. Lots going to waste, I reason, is better than running short.

I haven't grafted for over a decade and my familiarity with the rootstocks is waning down from modest. I'll be reaching for plain old seedling rootstocks again, but I recall that M111 with a dwarfing interstem is pretty good stuff. M7 works very well here in Iowa; the few trees I have on it are around 70% of full size. I don't even know if a person can get Mark anymore, but it works great here to hold trees down to around 35% (my estimation of canopy volume). A little graft incompatibility (like with Hornburger pancake) can yield an interesting knot at the union, but they self-support here very well in some horrific wind loads. I have a handful of P22 trees self-supporting in sheltered locations and they are around 15% of standard.

I have some issues with sun scald over winter, and this can cause some leaning of the trees over years - the southwest exposure bark dies and then the tree leans a bit to the northeast (prevailing winter winds are out of the northwest), exposing more trunk and yielding enhanced winter scald in subsequent years. Seems to be somewhat variety specific. This year in particular, asian beetles really took their toll with defoliation and outright eating of the apples. There were thousands per tree and they completely covered the apples as they ripened, consuming them down to little husks of apples. For the first time in many years, I pulled out the sprayer to salvage a portion of the crop. Occasionally beaver will journey up to the orchard and fell a tree or two, and the deer are ever vigilant for anything low enough to destroy.

For the first time in years nevertheless, I'm planning to graft a few more trees. I NEED a Knobbed Russet and figure to add Minnesota 1734, Chestnut Crab, and Grimes Golden (don't know why I didn't do the latter one before). Mostly, though, I want a few more Golden Russet.

If you feel like grafting do it! Most of mine were good old whip grafts wrapped with nothing but parafilm - they are easy to do and reliable as long as a person makes sure to line up at least one side of the whip. Seeing as I enjoy puttering, I tended to set the rootstock out first and then field grafted dormant wood after the rootstock buds were swelling or even leafing out. I did some cleft grafts (work great too) and bark grafts (like falling-off-a-log easy if your bark is slipping good). If you set out some rootstocks in the ground you can graft on them in future years for a super-fast growing tree on established roots. I've taken scionwood from trees not even planted yet, so trees being too small shouldn't stop you. In fact, a freshly planted tree is unlikely to grow as fast as a little tiny scion grafted onto an established rootstock. My bark grafts needed support for a couple years because they grow so fast they can't hold the weight until they put some wood on the union. I did a few T-buds, but there isn't the quick gratification factor involved so I didn't keep doing it. Perhaps I haven't done it for so long I only remember the success, but as I recall the only graft failures I had were due to physical dislodging of the scion or to rootstock failure. I'll remember better in a few months when I try it again.

If you have the room, continue to have trouble with Cox, and haven't tried Kidd's, I'd strongly encourage you to try Kidd's. It satisfies my need for the Cox taste without Cox troubles.

I don't have 'frequin rouge', but I do have 'brown snout' and 'herfordshire redstreak" (which brown snout brings to mind). Do I need a frequin rouge?

 

[CidahMastah]

No no no haha . I only have three standard trees on the property edge. All the rest are semidwarf sized - so lot of trees yes, but not standards. My apples won't get wasted that is for sure (I usually buy bulk and press 80 bushel a year and don't think it will get wasted as friends will be after my apples too). We usually press a total of about 200 gallons between my property, getting some from neighbors and the apples I buy. We make a family/friend day out of it.

Thes pests for the trees will always be an issue. I have good airflow so hope that will help, but admit I will probably have to plan for spraying a bit.

Sounds like I have to read up more and learn about the grafting.

I almost went with the kid originally but thought I would try the original. But I too was concerned about the robust nature of the kid over the regular cox.

Brown snout I wanted to get but they were out. Frequin rouge is supposed to be a great hard cider apple, french in origin. But truthfully I have never tried it so in 5 years I will let you know! haha I need to add to my russets as well. I have roxbury but planned on adding my sweet apples next year (maybe 4-6 more trees and I am done.... for now).

Thanks for the encouragement on the grafting. If you don't mind I might reach out to you when I take the plunge.

 

[deuceontap]

Just my $.02...I have been consuming my cider for a while now (month or so). I bottle carbed. Turned out great and is nearly gone after holiday parties. Boo!! I set aside a gallon to test xylitol for back-sweetened bottled sparkling cider. My research indicated digestive issues were a result of individuals replacing all their normal sugar intake with xylitol. I guess you need to gradually increase intake over a period of time to acclimatise your system. Anyway the usual threshold of intolerance is fairly high.
I sweetened at just under a teaspoon per bottle. I warned everyone about it and nobody hesitated to have one or sometimes three. Of ten or so people, myself and wife included, no one had a noticeable reaction.
My point is I have used it successfully, with no problems, and will do so again at a lesser amount. Cider was very good but most agreed it was too sweet.
Cheers!

 

[DWavs]

Just my $.02...I have been consuming my cider for a while now (month or so). I bottle carbed. Turned out great and is nearly gone after holiday parties. Boo!! I set aside a gallon to test xylitol for back-sweetened bottled sparkling cider. My research indicated digestive issues were a result of individuals replacing all their normal sugar intake with xylitol. I guess you need to gradually increase intake over a period of time to acclimatise your system. Anyway the usual threshold of intolerance is fairly high.
I sweetened at just under a teaspoon per bottle. I warned everyone about it and nobody hesitated to have one or sometimes three. Of ten or so people, myself and wife included, no one had a noticeable reaction.
My point is I have used it successfully, with no problems, and will do so again at a lesser amount. Cider was very good but most agreed it was too sweet.
Cheers!

Wow! I use 3 teaspoons of truvia per gallon! I bet yours was some sweet cider!

 

[pingeyeg]

I'm making my wife a raspberry cider and would like to know the best way to back sweeten it, without yeast starting up again? I would think, adding more sugar just before bottling would only cause more carbonation. Is there a smart way of doing this? The cider will be bottled and stored as needed at room temperature.

 

[DMartin]

The quick answer is:

Artificial Sweeteners / Lactose,
Keg and Force Carbonate,
Pasteurize It, or
Kill the yeast and serve it flat.

Details on all 4 are here in the thread, just ignore the argument halfway through.

 

[3dogbrew]

I'm making my wife a raspberry cider and would like to know the best way to back sweeten it, without yeast starting up again? I would think, adding more sugar just before bottling would only cause more carbonation. Is there a smart way of doing this? The cider will be bottled and stored as needed at room temperature.

use potassium sorbate as instructed when you get it (1/2 tsp per gallon, dont mound.)

make sure fermentation has halted, i usually rack the cider first, then add the p.sorbate, then check for action overnight, if its quiet, ill back sweeten with a few cans of juice concentrate of my choice, stir, then bottle. if not, wait another 12. its always stopped for me by then with the p.sorbate.

if you want it bubbly:
bottle everything you got once your p.sorbate and cider lees has settled, then:
make sure that you get a water bottle from the corner store, and fill it up with some of your batch after you add your back sweetening in. close the top tight of the water bottle and watch the pressure after you bottle the rest of your cider. once the plastic bottle is pushing out really major, you can set the glass bottles in a 'bath' in your kitchen sink .. and it goes on... read more on how to pasteurize to prevent bottle bursting:

http://www.hardciderproject.com/har...weeten-using-potassium-sorbate-metabisulfite/


if you don't want to have it bubbly:
just bottle by the instructions above, and KEEP in the fridge. if it warms it will start fermenting and could cause some bottle bombs over time. (a few hours is fine, but shipping it, or just keeping it out in the warmth can cause a few shards of glass to go places it shouldn't.)



(anyone reading this please let me know if any of this is incorrect.. i'm less than a year into this hobby turned addiction and if i'm wrong please correct me )


also ... how did this thread get so de-railed?