Berliner Weiss, many ways

[Whalewang]

That wiki was not helpful but thanks for trying.

After experimenting with cultured lacto and yeasts I've come to the conclusion that lacto from grain has the best souring properties. So for me, if I was doing a sour mash for this style, I'd use the Lacto from the grain.

 

[TNGabe]

That wiki was not helpful but thanks for trying.

After experimenting with cultured lacto and yeasts I've come to the conclusion that lacto from grain has the best souring properties. So for me, if I was doing a sour mash for this style, I'd use the Lacto from the grain.

Maybe you should read it again, it might make sense eventually.

 

[Whalewang]

It makes sense but it is not directly related to our process for this style.

 

[Wyrmwood]

Maybe you should read it again, it might make sense eventually.

Yeah, so if I interpret it correctly, basically heating wort causes DMS, so in a "no boil", the wort is never heated (except for the mash, but according to the post mash doesn't produce dms, though it does produce some precursors) and thus no DMS.

I never heard of 'no boil' before this thread. In fact, never heard of sour mash until I read this

Fun stuff

 

[TNGabe]

Yeah, so if I interpret it correctly, basically heating wort causes DMS, so in a "no boil", the wort is never heated (except for the mash, but according to the post mash doesn't produce dms, though it does produce some precursors) and thus no DMS.

I never heard of 'no boil' before this thread. In fact, never heard of sour mash until I read this

Fun stuff

That's what I got out of it, but I'm just a wyrmwhang.

 

[brycro]

I just drank a couple from my first batch of Berliner tonight......2 weeks ago after 2 weeks in the bottle it had a strong dirty diaper smell to it but I went on vacation and got home last night I have had 3 today already.....no bad smell now.....nice carbonation and head.....a champagne like carbonation with a nice head. very tart (I soured mash for 4 days). I love this style. I had been buying 25 ounce bottles of the Bruery's Hottentoth for 10.99 a bottle (ouch).....now i got 5 gallons for cheap. Anyway, I'll be making this again. Below is a link to the actual recipe I used.

http://atimeforbeer.blogspot.com/2010/11/berliner-weiss-recipe.html

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

I made my second batch of Berliner Weisse and bottled it a week ago. I dry hopped this one with Nelson Sauvin to give a fruitiness without the expense of buying actual fruit. I tried one tonight and it is fantastic. Very sour, but a very clean tasting lactic sourness. Big fruity aroma from the Nelson Sauvin. I got a big white grape aroma before bottling, but after carbonation I get more tropical fruit aromas. Anyway, this is the best beer I've made. I can't wait to try adding fruit to my berliners and trying different dry hops.

 

[bassman22]

After seeking advice from you guys, I decided to jump forward with a berliner. First off, thanks for the help! I have never brewed the style and have only had a few commercial beers of the style, but what could it hurt? Its 90*+ in Florida and this would make a perfect pool side beer.

My attempt was towards a Florida Weisse (sorry for those of you who dont like the term), much like what J Wakefield is pushing. Huge fruit additions into a base berliner recipe. I am still an extract brewer so I went with a sour wort approach. We'll call the final beer was a Pom Razz Berliner Weisse.

Steps:
-Heated 3 gal water to safe temps and added 3lb wheat DME and 1lb pilsner DME
-Dropped the temp to around 110 and pitched a cup or so of uncrushed 2-row into the wort
-Lay a sheet of syran wrap directly over the wort and "glue" the sides of the syran to the side of the kettle. This will prevent oxygen from getting in. Also purged with a blanket of CO2 into the headspace of the kettle and then covered the top of the kettle with another layer of syran.
-Put the kettle in the oven with the oven light on. Also wrapped in a couple towels. Used my bbq thermometer to monitor temps. This technique held the temp at average 106-108* for several days. No need to turn on the oven. It also kept the fiance from getting on me about the smell, as the oven contained it well (except when the door was opened)
-After two waiting two days, I sampled the wort two times a day. I (believe) I let it ride of a total of 4 days. I had to keep in mind that I would be topping off with 2 gals of water, but at the same time I had to keep in mind that the sugars in the wort were masking the true potential level of sour. Over the days I got a delicious creamed corn smell that reminded me of Thanksgiving corn casserole. It started to turn a little more towards creamed corn + garbage towards day 3 though, haha. I wasnt getting any of the terrible aromas (baby poop) I was warned about, so I was happy.
-Boiled the soured wort 15 min to kill the lacto off. Added 1oz of Hallertauer hops to the boil. I had concerns, as after the boil it had some creamed corn smell. This however went away during fermentation.
-Topped off wort with 2 gal water, cooled to 67*, and pitched US-05. Let it ride for 2 weeks.
-At week 2, added 5 lb raspberry and 16 fl oz POM juice (raspberries were frozen raspberries that I pureed and then refroze with the POM juice until ready to use) into a mesh bag.


My opinion: One of the best beer I have made. Friends cant get enough of it. Its certainly different and not for everyone though. Beautiful color. Light, crisp, refreshing. Has some lactic funk on the nose, which transitions to more of a pleasant dirty raspberry aroma as it warms. It has moderate tartness. I wouldnt mind if it had just a bit more pucker. The raspberries shine nicely in the beer, but its not crazy fruity. Things I would do different next time: let the sour wort ride a little bit longer, and add more fruit to bring out that raspberry character, and add more carbonation (I was limited to what I thought my bottles could handle...3.4 volumes, which is high but I felt it could use a little more carb).

Cheers!

 

[inda_bebe]

J wakefield and the best Berliner I've ever tried. It was a blackberry Berliner. That was what inspired me to get started on my own.

 

[Leeds1]

Any batch spargers out there that have done a sour mash? I think this is the route I'm going to take but I'm wondering if should mash in as normal and then batch sparge after my mash has reached desired sourness? Or do I try to fit as much of the total volume in the first infusion?

 

[fc36]

Any batch spargers out there that have done a sour mash? I think this is the route I'm going to take but I'm wondering if should mash in as normal and then batch sparge after my mash has reached desired sourness? Or do I try to fit as much of the total volume in the first infusion?

I batch sparged mine in a bucket because I didn't want to infect my Nash tun. I ran the mash as usual with about a 1.25 qts/lb ratio. I then added boiling water to bring it up to 180 for a quick pasteurization and then added cool sterile water at the end to bring it back down to about 100F and then threw in my uncrushed grains for a true sour mash. By this point I was at maybe 1.75-2 qts/lb, still under my 6 gal total batch size and using a heat mat, I held it at 100F for 5 days. Mine worked fine and then I just "mashed out" by pouring the liquid and grain through a 5 gal paint strainer and topped up with water and boiled for 15 mins. The batch came out great..

 

[McCoy]

Why would you be concerned about infecting your mash tun? I would think you could always pasteurize it with heat, as you did for this mash. Even if some microbe did survive, I wouldn't expect it to do much to your wort during your typical 60 minute infusion mash, and after that you boil anyway.

 

[fc36]

Why would you be concerned about infecting your mash tun? I would think you could always pasteurize it with heat, as you did for this mash. Even if some microbe did survive, I wouldn't expect it to do much to your wort during your typical 60 minute infusion mash, and after that you boil anyway.

I'm not interested in having any possibility of problems in the future after investing time and money to build a mash tun. Like I said, the bucket worked way better and allowed the aquarium heater to do its thing and keep my sour mash locked in at 100F. A cooler MLT works both ways, it acts as an insulator and keeps either drinks cold for its originally intended purpose or mashes warm as homebrewers have commandeered it for. The aquarium heater would not have worked very well through 2" of insulation. Also, I'm glad I did this because even after my 15 minute boil time with the sour mash, when I put the wort into a fermenter and allowed regular saccharomyces to do their thing, I noticed a fresh pellicle form.

 

[terrapinj]

you are infecting your mash tun everytime you use it

 

[jtd_419]

Just drank my first bottle of this and I have to say that it is delicious. Even swmbo likes it and she doesn't care for beer.

 

[Leeds1]

72 hours into a sour mash and its not quite sour enough yet. I stopped purging it with CO2 everytime after opening and took off the plastic wrap for the last 24 hours. I'm thinking this should be ready to boil tomorrow afternoon.

No horrible smell and nothing funky looking so far. Smells like creamed corn and has a good tart flavor. Hoping this turns put good.

 

[fc36]

you are infecting your mash tun everytime you use it

Thanks troll. Why even bother chiming in with negative comments? I'm a BSChE, I think I know what I'm doing.

 

[Whalewang]

Thanks troll. Why even bother chiming in with negative comments?

He told you the truth.

I'm a BSChE

Do you mean that you received a BSChE? Well, that is indeed impressive.

I think I know what I'm doing.

Obviously.

 

[terrapinj]

Thanks troll. Why even bother chiming in with negative comments? I'm a BSChE, I think I know what I'm doing.

easy there - wasn't trolling and wasn't trying to be negative - i have no idea what your background is nor does it matter in this situation.

i simply stated a fact; you are concerned about bugs in your mash tun when in fact you introduce them everytime you use it to mash - you expressed fears about ruining your MLT from doing a sour mash and i simply pointed out that you expose it to bugs and wild yeast everytime you use it - no need to be defensive about it

 

[Tinhorn]

I stayed at a holiday inn express last night

 

[fc36]

easy there - wasn't trolling and wasn't trying to be negative - i have no idea what your background is nor does it matter in this situation.

i simply stated a fact; you are concerned about bugs in your mash tun when in fact you introduce them everytime you use it to mash - you expressed fears about ruining your MLT from doing a sour mash and i simply pointed out that you are doing so expose it to bugs and wild yeast everytime you use it - no need to be defensive about it

The idea is to not cause any problems down the line. If you read my post you would have seen that I only mention not infecting my mash tun because I noticed a pellicle had still formed in my fermenter post boil, so I'm very glad that I had isolated the sour mash. What's the cost of a 5 gallon bucket? Like $5, so why risk it with a mash tun that cost much more in both time and money to build. I think the bucket mash went very well considering I was able to hold temp for 6 days. No need to come in here and hate on a process that worked perfectly.

 

[fc36]

He told you the truth.



Do you mean that you received a BSChE? Well, that is indeed impressive.



Obviously.

You're an even worse troll. This forum is meant to help people. I simply told someone what I did that worked and some of the reasoning behind it. You simply insulted people and offered nothing to the discussion.

 

[eric19312]

You're an even worse troll. This forum is meant to help people. I simply told someone what I did that worked and some of the reasoning behind it. You simply insulted people and offered nothing to the discussion.

I just read your process. How do you explain the pelicle in the fermentor in beer that was boiled for 15 min? That had to be a post boil/chill contamination that can't seem to have anything to do with the mash vessel, either the one you used or the one you didn't use...

I also agree with posters who said you weren't being trolled...no need for getting snarky about it...it is common noob (and I'm not calling you that!) misconception that the mash tun should be sanitized, even when working with non-sour beers. This is simply a huge waste of sanitizer and shows a poor understanding of the mash. We all know the raw grain is covered with wild bugs, that's why we can use it to sour wort. Mash can't possibly be sanitary, neither can the container that holds it.

 

[fc36]

I do not and never have used sanitizer pre boil. Sanitizing pre boil on any beer is simply folly and waste. I put away everything clean and then just rinse and clean before use and sanitize only items used post boil. I just mentioned my observations from my batch that went well mind you.

EDIT: My best guess for the source of infection was my well used auto-siphon (at the time). I have since switched to an eBIAB with a ss chugger pump. I still use my old rig from time to time for things like sour beers, just to avoid any complications, but I did buy a new auto-siphon. And for what it's worth, most commercial breweries use completely separate systems and even brewhouses for brewing sour beers vs sacch beers, so it's not that crazy of an idea.

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

So I tried culturing lacto from some uncrushed 2-row malt. This is the third time I've done this. The first time went okay, but I didn't let it get sour enough for my liking. The second time was the best beer I've ever made. This time I'm trying essentially what I did last time, but with a partial mash.
I'm having an issue though. After pasteurizing the beer to ferment normally, my gravity is now 1.018. The actual OG should have come out to about 1.039 (assuming 60% efficiency, which is what I typically get doing a BIAB partial mash.) While I had the wort souring outside in the heat, there was tons of bubbles in the airlock and fermentation seemed really active. Is it possible that there was a big enough wild yeast count to actually ferment half of the sugars in the beer, or is it possible that lacto could eat that much sugar?
Anyway, when I pasteurized, I kept it at 145 degrees F, which should not have driven off any possible alcohol in there, so hopefully everything is just fine.
Has anyone else had any experience with a significant gravity drop from souring with grain?

 

[TravisT]

I've always been told that you need to boil pilsner for 90min to get the DMS out of the wort. If that is true then why does the no boil method work? Wouldn't it be full of DMS? Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[mysteryshrimp]

As has been said in this thread several times, Pilsner has DMS precursors that are then converted to DMS starting at temps just above sparge temps. As long as you don't ever reach 175 degrees, you won't get any DMS.

 

[McCoy]

So I tried culturing lacto from some uncrushed 2-row malt. This is the third time I've done this. The first time went okay, but I didn't let it get sour enough for my liking. The second time was the best beer I've ever made. This time I'm trying essentially what I did last time, but with a partial mash.
I'm having an issue though. After pasteurizing the beer to ferment normally, my gravity is now 1.018. The actual OG should have come out to about 1.039 (assuming 60% efficiency, which is what I typically get doing a BIAB partial mash.) While I had the wort souring outside in the heat, there was tons of bubbles in the airlock and fermentation seemed really active. Is it possible that there was a big enough wild yeast count to actually ferment half of the sugars in the beer, or is it possible that lacto could eat that much sugar?
Anyway, when I pasteurized, I kept it at 145 degrees F, which should not have driven off any possible alcohol in there, so hopefully everything is just fine.
Has anyone else had any experience with a significant gravity drop from souring with grain?

As far as I know, sour beers are harder to understand via gravity readings than clean beers. When we think of drops in gravity in clean beers, the assumption is that the bulk of the drop in gravity is due to sugars being replaced with ethanol. However, in sour beers a substantial amount of the sugar is replaced with lactic acid. Without having a good sense of what portion of the sugar is replaced with lactic acid versus ethanol or how the dissolved lactic acid will impact the gravity, the case is a bit hopeless. I once read that "lactic acid has a similar specific gravity to sugar", for what's it worth, but I would think it's worth nothing since sugar doesn't have a specific gravity (i.e. a pound of sugar in a gallon of water has a specific gravity, and it's not clear under what conditions of dissolution lactic acid has a similar specific gravity to sugar).

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

As far as I know, sour beers are harder to understand via gravity readings than clean beers. When we think of drops in gravity in clean beers, the assumption is that the bulk of the drop in gravity is due to sugars being replaced with ethanol. However, in sour beers a substantial amount of the sugar is replaced with lactic acid. Without having a good sense of what portion of the sugar is replaced with lactic acid versus ethanol or how the dissolved lactic acid will impact the gravity, the case is a bit hopeless. I once read that "lactic acid has a similar specific gravity to sugar", for what's it worth, but I would think it's worth nothing since sugar doesn't have a specific gravity (i.e. a pound of sugar in a gallon of water has a specific gravity, and it's not clear under what conditions of dissolution lactic acid has a similar specific gravity to sugar).

Which would mean that the gravity of my berliner should be higher than the amount of sugar left in it. But it's all the way down to 1.015. I'm pretty sure there's some wild yeast living on my grain.

 

[McCoy]

In principle, you would expect a higher gravity reading, but without having more knowledge about the dissolution of lactic acid in water and bugs' metabolic pathways, there's no way for me to say for sure. Someone else probably has that knowledge though, I just meant to point out that it's a subtle subject. If you cultured bugs from grain then you almost certainly have a diversity of microbes in your beer.