Berliner Weiss, many ways

[barryfine]

I'm going to be brewing up a raspberry berliner weiss this weekend using the sour wort method with White Labs lacto. I'm going to hold it at 110 from Friday evening until Sunday morning using a heat stick attached to a digital temperature controller in my boil kettle.

I'm going to make a session ipa the same day. Since the mash is already done for the first beer it should make for a quick double brew day.

I brewed this beer up yesterday. I had some issues, but it worked out in the end. My heat stick wasn't water tight so it tripped my gfi so I didn't have perfect temp control. So every few hours I had to go out in the garage and gently heat it some. I managed to keep between 100-120 from Friday evening until Sunday morning. It didn't start to get much activity until Saturday night so it didn't turn out very sour, but I could still taste it. Here is a pic of before I started the boil. I think next time I'm definitely going to do a lacto starter and maybe give it one more day. Also, I'm going to use the heat stick now that I fixed it.

I used my digital ph meter for the first time with this beer as well. Post boil it ended up with a ph of 3.8. Any of you guys who are more familiar with ph, what do you guys shoot with a sour beer?

 

[TNGabe]

Decoction hopping for a 10 gallon batch.



Going to sour wort with grain in kettle and then pitch 05 I guess. Did last batch half Brett half 05 and blended, but I don't have any Brett ready to pitch.

 

[lustreking]

I did a decoction mash with no boil and no hops. I then pitched a qt starter with wyeast's lactobacillus and let it sour for ~5 days. I then did a 15 min boil with hops and pitched rehydrated s-05.

It's been two days and no fermentation. I'm guessing that the pH was too low for the s-05.

I made up another qt starter and am spinning some rehydrated nottingham. I'm planning on pitching it when it's most active, hopefully giving the yeast a running start before it hits the acidic wort. Should I "temper" the starter by adding a little of the wort at a time before pitching it, or just dump it right in.

 

[PJoyce85]

Here is mine. 1c but using Wyeast Berliner Weisse Blend. Mash with hops and no-boil. Spent about 3 weeks in primary, 6 months in secondary and this is at 11 days of carbonation. I used 6oz of corn sugar and a half pack of US-05.

Nice and light. Very carbonated and crystal clear for the first half of the bottle. I'm not happy with the Berliner Weisse Blend. Everyone who has sampled it says its sour, but I was hoping for a little more. It is a little sour, but nothing like the Kindl I get at the store. Still, it will be a great beer for warm summer nights.

 

[terrapinj]

wow that's impressively clear - what % of wheat did you use?

 

[PJoyce85]

50-50 German Pils and Weyermann Pale Wheat. The second pour was traditionally cloudy.

 

[malweth]

Mine got 34 at NHC (Atlanta) - didn't make it to mBOS. No score sheets yet . . .

 

[eric19312]

I've got a version of 5a in secondary now. I mashed with a protein rest and hopped during decoction ala mad fermentationist, then cooled to 125F, and used grain to sour the wort, then pasteurized the wort to kill the wild lacto and pitched US-05. Yeast lagged more than normal but eventually kicked in and based on looking at the carboy/airlock/krausen seem to be about done. But beer does not seem to want to clear... Haze in carboy not settling.

Any thoughts on next step? Cold crash and bottle? Gelatin or isinglass fining? Pitch Bret But then wait till fall to drink my summer BW?

 

[Whalewang]

A BW is traditionally cloudy. I would not attempt to clarify it.

 

[barryfine]

My first attempt is almost done, but I'm already working on my second try. I mashed yesterday, held it at 180 for 15 minutes, cooled it down to 110 with my wort chiller and am maintaining that temperature with my heat stick. I'm going to split this batch into 3 smaller batches for science.

My first batch will be no boil 100% Lacto fermentation (white labs). I'll keep it at 110 until it completely attenuates.

The second is going to be no boil plus American ale yeast. The lacto will have a 3 day head start and then I'll ferment the ale yeast at 65 degrees.

The third one I'm going to boil for 15 minutes, chill to fermentation temperatures and pitch ale yeast.

I love doing experiments like this and can't wait for the results!

 

[eric19312]

My first attempt is almost done, but I'm already working on my second try. I mashed yesterday, held it at 180 for 15 minutes, cooled it down to 110 with my wort chiller and am maintaining that temperature with my heat stick. I'm going to split this batch into 3 smaller batches for science.

My first batch will be no boil 100% Lacto fermentation (white labs). I'll keep it at 110 until it completely attenuates.

The second is going to be no boil plus American ale yeast. The lacto will have a 3 day head start and then I'll ferment the ale yeast at 65 degrees.

The third one I'm going to boil for 15 minutes, chill to fermentation temperatures and pitch ale yeast.

I love doing experiments like this and can't wait for the results!

So third is not sour? Is it for blending with 1& 2?

 

[malweth]

My score sheets from NHC R1 (did not continue on):
http://whitewoodbrewery.us/2013/05/07/national-homebrew-competition-round-1-results

 

[barryfine]

So third is not sour? Is it for blending with 1& 2?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. All three are getting 3 days of lacto fermentation in my keggle at 100 degrees prior to being split up, so they will all be sour.

I'm just trying to determine which is going to give me the best results after the sour worting process. No boil 100% lacto, no boil lacto + ale yeast, or 15 min boil with ale yeast. This will give me some nice side by side comparisons to get a good idea what each one gives me.

 

[sclitch]

If anyone is interested, I recently got a silver medal in the sour category with this process. I haven't yet received my score or any judging notes but here are a few tasting notes of my own.
Very pale, cloudy, effervescent. Not a whole lot on the nose, a little grainy. Taste is sharply sour, like a punch in the jaw, lots of breadiness as well.

It's probably around 4.2%

50/50 pils/wheat. Low mash temperature. For the souring, I put all of the wort in about 5 one gallon milk jugs. I added a handful of uncrushed 2-row pale malt to each jug, squeezed all of the air out and screwed caps on them. Tossed these all inside my fermentation chamber (heated with a hair dryer). I had them souring at 95F for 3 days and I still wasn't happy with how sour it was becoming so I added a bit more uncrushed grain to each and ramped up the temperature to 110 for another 3 days. Finally I was satisfied with the sourness (I like em sour), I did a quick 15 min boil with 5 IBU worth of Hallertauer. Fermented with Safale-05 at ~68F for 10 days then bottled.

I never noticed any bad aromas during fermentation. Maybe because I was able to limit the oxygen exposure to the wort.

The only problem was that one of the milk jugs cracked! That was a fun mess to clean up.......................

 

[eric19312]

If anyone is interested, I recently got a silver medal in the sour category with this process. I haven't yet received my score or any judging notes but here are a few tasting notes of my own.
Very pale, cloudy, effervescent. Not a whole lot on the nose, a little grainy. Taste is sharply sour, like a punch in the jaw, lots of breadiness as well.

It's probably around 4.2%

50/50 pils/wheat. Low mash temperature. For the souring, I put all of the wort in about 5 one gallon milk jugs. I added a handful of uncrushed 2-row pale malt to each jug, squeezed all of the air out and screwed caps on them. Tossed these all inside my fermentation chamber (heated with a hair dryer). I had them souring at 95F for 3 days and I still wasn't happy with how sour it was becoming so I added a bit more uncrushed grain to each and ramped up the temperature to 110 for another 3 days. Finally I was satisfied with the sourness (I like em sour), I did a quick 15 min boil with 5 IBU worth of Hallertauer. Fermented with Safale-05 at ~68F for 10 days then bottled.

I never noticed any bad aromas during fermentation. Maybe because I was able to limit the oxygen exposure to the wort.

The only problem was that one of the milk jugs cracked! That was a fun mess to clean up.......................

I really like the sound of this process. Am wondering if 2 liter soda bottles would work even better (but you'd need about 10 of them...) as they might be less likely to crack, are designed to hold some pressure if the fermentation starts producing gas, and maybe are less O2 permeable (not sure about the last, need to research).

Am wondering how hot I can get my fermentation chamber (an upright fridge with a STC-1000 control) using a paint can heater...

As for the 15 minute boil at the end. Are you at all concerned about boiling off alcohol that was produced during the lactic fermentation? Is it too little to worry about? I'm guessing it is just not an issue. Out of curiosity what were your pre and post boil gravities on this beer? I am assuming pre boil would be after lacto fermentation, when the 5 gallons went into the brew kettle...

 

[ajwillys]

sclitch,
Your comment made me immediately think of one of those collapsible water jugs:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001QBZI90/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Could be a great fermentor for oxygen free souring.

 

[eric19312]

sclitch,
Your comment made me immediately think of one of those collapsible water jugs:

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Products-Poly-Bagged-Fold-A-Carrier-Collapsible/dp/B001QBZI90

Could be a great fermentor for oxygen free souring.

How about this one...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003U6A3EY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Disposable, about $1.25/batch....

 

[smokinghole]

I'd be worried about cross plastic oxygen permeation. It might not be enough to cause aerobic fermentation with your grain souring method but it might cause oxidized off flavors when compared. Why not just invest in a corny keg? They're reusable, easy to clean, you can purge/pressurize them, and you can even boil the mash or wort while its still in the keg. I do understand that 5gal might be a bit limiting. Just thinking if it's a style you brew a lot of it might make your life easier. I luckily have some 10 gal fermentors and plan a sour mashed beer soon that is destined for peaches and fruity hops. I will brew soon so it's ready to get peaches once the orchard near me has them available.

 

[ajwillys]

Sure, you can purge any vessel with co2 but its impossible to get 100% removed. I'd be very skeptical that more oxygen leaks through the walls of a plastic bag than already exists by "purging by mixing".

 

[smokinghole]

Then remain skeptical. It was purely a suggestion, guess people can't make suggestions that involve spending money around tightwad homebrewers.

 

[ajwillys]

Then remain skeptical. It was purely a suggestion, guess people can't make suggestions that involve spending money around tightwad homebrewers.

I'm not sure what you mean by spending money? I have nine kegs, 4 carboys, a 13 gallon fermentor and an uncut 15 gallon sanke. I also have a second co2 tank so I wouldn't have to disconnect the one to my kegerator. I could certainly do your suggestion without spending money. I was trying to politely say that I don't think your method is better.

 

[sclitch]

I really like the sound of this process. Am wondering if 2 liter soda bottles would work even better (but you'd need about 10 of them...) as they might be less likely to crack, are designed to hold some pressure if the fermentation starts producing gas, and maybe are less O2 permeable (not sure about the last, need to research).

Am wondering how hot I can get my fermentation chamber (an upright fridge with a STC-1000 control) using a paint can heater...

As for the 15 minute boil at the end. Are you at all concerned about boiling off alcohol that was produced during the lactic fermentation? Is it too little to worry about? I'm guessing it is just not an issue. Out of curiosity what were your pre and post boil gravities on this beer? I am assuming pre boil would be after lacto fermentation, when the 5 gallons went into the brew kettle...

I'll have to check my notes on the pre-post boil gravities when I get home today. I don't think there would be too much alcohol production from the souring process to worry about though.

I think your pop bottle idea would work great since they will only be in them for less than a week. Just remember to release the pressure in the daily (or more than once per day).

For the heating, why not just grab a $8 hair dryer from Walmart? Hair driers even come with a fan to lessen any temperature stratification within your chamber. If your chamber is decently insulated, you won't hear the hair drier kick on much at all.

 

[sclitch]

How about this one...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003U6A3EY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Disposable, about $1.25/batch....

I'd question how food safe they are, since they are meant to be used for non-food storage.

 

[sclitch]

Sure, you can purge any vessel with co2 but its impossible to get 100% removed. I'd be very skeptical that more oxygen leaks through the walls of a plastic bag than already exists by "purging by mixing".

Completely agree. You might want to think about oxygen permeation through plastic when you're ageing something for loooon periods of time. Otherwise, I would guess that you would be left with more oxygen in your vessel from a CO2 purge than squeezing air from a plastic vessel and sealing it.

 

[Tiroux]

Are you all assuming that a sour mash doesnt produce co2? Heterofermentative lacto does..

 

[sclitch]

Of course. That's why I suggest releasing the CO2 pressure at least once per day by opening the bottles

 

[smokinghole]

All I have to say is that a lot of oxygen can make it through a plastic bag. The only bags I'd use are bags designed for food/water and in this case I'd go with a mylar type bag that they fill wine with for bag in a box. It might not be enough to notice immediately but I am inclined to say that someone with a better sense of taste than me would tell the difference between a stainless steel vessel and thin plastic containers. Purging a vessel with CO2 can lead to oxygen percentages in the vessel lower than 0.025%. So if you think simply squeezing air out of a bag is better than purging then just keep using that method. I love that you're resistant to even give it a try because you don't think it would make a difference. Not like it'd be much more effort. The breweries that have done sour mashes I believe fitted their mash tanks with fittings so they can purge the oxygen out greatly reducing aerobic fermentation of native bacteria on the grain. Aerobic fermentation is what tends to form the vomit and poop odors and flavors.

 

[Tiroux]

Not every one have a co2 tank at home.

 

[eric19312]

My first and only batch was lacto fermented in a stainless steel pot with a lid. Opened it up every 8 hours to taste. I am getting some funk but not vomit or poop. I'd like to reduce O2 exposure but not going to get crazy about it....

As for the soda bottles they are able to hold a fair amount of pressure. Probably be ok not opening.

The hair dryer sounds a little scary. Not sure why.

As for food safety of the ziplock bags I agree it is a potential concern because the mfg doesn't claim food grade, however I read elsewhere it really is the same plastic.

Oh yes, I am a tightwad.

 

[ajwillys]

smokinghole, I didn't mean to get you all upset. I'm not a scientist and I don't know what method is best. I know that plastic is permeable and I also know that purging all oxygen is impossible (without first creating a vacuum at least). I didn't appreciate your assumption that my preference for one method over another meant I was a tightwad for some reason. Anyway, thanks for your viewpoint.