Berliner Weiss, many ways

[GatorBeer]

That's what you want when adding lacto.

True, but I haven't seen this extreme of a drop in gravity in my 4-5 times I've soured my wort. I'm going to have a 1% beer at this point.

 

[fc36]

True, but I haven't seen this extreme of a drop in gravity in my 4-5 times I've soured my wort. I'm going to have a 1% beer at this point.

Sounds like a personal problem. Sorry, had to do it.

Well just add some honey and resweeten it for sacch fermentation.

 

[Ostomo517]

I understand certain gravities to stay within the style, but Im not one to always color within the lines. So making a higher gravity sour in the 5a way to account for the lacto using some of the sugars as stated above does this still work well?

 

[SoupNazi]

Did my first BW 2 weeks ago. Sour mashed for 72 hours @ ~100*F with a Wyeast Lacto D packet. Smelled like I expected... putrid...

15min boil and enough Tennanger hops to hit 4 IBU. OG = 1.032

Pitched a 1.5L starter of Brett. L. and has been bubbling away since.

Any thoughts on how long this will take to ferment and be ready to bottle? Im fairly inexperienced with 100% brett fermented beer.

 

[Calder]

Has anyone seen fermentation just from the lacto culture off the grains? I had soured for 8 days at room temp and after a quick 10 minute boil I took my gravity reading and it read 1.013!! It should have been 1.039!

Many species of lactobacillus is generally homofermentative and will produce lactic acid and very little else. More likely you have a super sour beer with very little alcohol.

Heterofermenative Lactobacillus will produce lactic acid, ethanol, and CO2. If you had an airlock on there and it was going, you have ethanol. How much??????? a guess would be about half of what you would get with regular yeast.

 

[Jlaw3000]

Love this thread!


I just did 5a extract. Sour wort/mash inoculated with .5lbs 2row and pale for 48 hours. 15 min boil/hop. Wyeast 1007.


3lb pale, 2lb wheat, 1lb pils.

Racked 1 gallon on to 2 cups pasteurized mixed berries just for fun. Might blend when finished or just bottle separately.

 

[Whalewang]

I'm planning on doing a '3' this weekend with the following approach:
-10 gallon batch with 1oz Citra using mash hopping
-15 minute no-boil (get the temp in the 180-200 F range)
-rack into two 5-gallon carboys
-ferment 5 gallons with WLP644 Brettanomyces bruxellensis Trois @ 82F
-ferment 5 gallons with WLP677 Lactobacillus Bacteria @ 82F
-after a couple months then combine and enjoy

 

[Xpertskir]

Well ****....I think I know the answer to this but I'll ask anyways.

Last night on my homemade lacto starter I noticed a spot of green mold developing amidst the delicious looking white pellicle. Does this mean I should start over?

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Well my first batch of Berliner was a drain pour. I did a 5a sour mashed version with wheat, pilsner, and acidulated malt. I mashed in a 10 gallon cooler, cooled to 110, stirred in a couple handfuls unmilled pilsner grain, mash covered with plastic wrap, flushed with CO2, and held for close to 48 hours. Fermented at 66 with US-05. It started at 1.032 and finished at 1.007.

It had a light odor in the mashtun but nothing serious. The aroma actually got stronger after a 15 minute boil, and worse still after fermentation with US-05. The taste is actually not bad but the aroma is so off putting there is no point in drinking it.

I had three other home brewed Berliners in the last couple weeks to compare to mine. Another Sour Mash with a near identical process to mine that turned out very cloudy, almost milky, slightly sour, and a little to sweet (finished at 1.012). It did not have a bad aroma but it seemed to lack any good aroma as well. It was just sort of blahh.

The other two were both normal mash, short boil, lacto fermented beers. One was lacto culture first and finished with ale yeast. The other was fermented with the mixed White Labs Berliner blend WLP630. Both were clearer, lighter in body, dryer, and crisper that the sour mashed version but they were both less tart/sour. One was a shorter fermentation so they may not have given the lacto enough time. The one with the blend was aged for a few months but it may have benefited from a warmer fermentation where lacto would have performed stronger.

Despite my drain poor first attempt there was enough positive going on in the beer that I am still ready to try again. I ordered some more malt and a vial of the WLP630. I also acquired a lacto culture from one of the brewers of the other beers I sampled.

I will be doing a 10 gallon batch mash at 148 for 1 hour, 15 to 30 minute boil to hit volume and gravity, split into two carboys, One is getting a WLP630 starter and I will let it got for at least a month or so. The other is going to get a straight lacto culture for about a week or two then it will get a Brett Trois WLP644 starter to finish.

 

[GatorBeer]

It had a light odor in the mashtun but nothing serious. The aroma actually got stronger after a 15 minute boil, and worse still after fermentation with US-05. The taste is actually not bad but the aroma is so off putting there is no point in drinking it.

What was the odor like?

 

[MidTNJasonF]

What was the odor like?

My wife describes it as baby vomit. She will not touch it. I personally think that is harsh and I say it is more sour wet farm animal mixed with cooked canned corn.

 

[Jlaw3000]

My wife describes it as baby vomit. She will not touch it. I personally think that is harsh and I say it is more sour wet farm animal mixed with cooked canned corn.

Hahaha, i know the smell, boil and light hop addition cures all

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Hahaha, i know the smell, boil and light hop addition cures all

Did not cure this one. 20 minute boil an ounce of german hops. It got worse after the boil and worse still after fermentation.

 

[Tiroux]

Did not cure this one. 20 minute boil an ounce of german hops. It got worse after the boil and worse still after fermentation.

I would guess other bacteria than Lacto entered the mash.. and created some nasty stuff other than lactic acid...

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

So I plan on doing a sour wort for an extract berlinerweisse. My plan is to throw some grain into wort and keep it hot until it sours to my taste (which will be pretty sour.) After that I will heat and then use WLP 644 to ferment. The brett should be able to withstand a highly acidic PH.
I asked a couple questions a couple pages back in this thread and got some helpful replies, but I still have more questions.

How do I determine the alcohol content of my beer? Is the lacto from base grain homo or hetero fermentative? This will determine whether or not I bring the wort to a full boil after souring. I've read that the density of lactic acid is much higher than alcohol. Won't that affect my hydrometer readings? If I could get some density numbers regarding sugar, alcohol, and lactic acid, that might help me to calculate everything. If someone could me more specific instructions, that would be even better.

I also have another question regarding fruit. First of all, how much fruit would everyone recommend to get a full flavor inside of a light beer like this? Right now, I am specifically considering berries, though I might try different kinds of fruit in the future. Also, has anyone tried the vintners harvest purees that Northern Brewer sells? They seem pretty convenient, but I would like more info on them.

Also, has anyone tried adding some hops at flameout or dry hopping with a berliner weisse? I feel like adding some fruity hops like citra or simcoe might be a good idea, but I'd love if someone could give input.
I've been trying to read up on everything I need to know before I decide exactly what I want to brew, but information on all of this is limited.

 

[Jlaw3000]

So I plan on doing a sour wort for an extract berlinerweisse. My plan is to throw some grain into wort and keep it hot until it sours to my taste (which will be pretty sour.) After that I will heat and then use WLP 644 to ferment. The brett should be able to withstand a highly acidic PH.


I also have another question regarding fruit. First of all, how much fruit would everyone recommend to get a full flavor inside of a light beer like this? Right now, I am specifically considering berries, though I might try different kinds of fruit in the future. Also, has anyone tried the vintners harvest purees that Northern Brewer sells?

Also, has anyone tried adding some hops at flameout or dry hopping with a berliner weisse? I feel like adding some fruity hops like citra or simcoe might be a good idea, but I'd love if someone could give input.
I've been trying to read up on everything I need to know before I decide exactly what I want to brew, but information on all of this is limited.

I did exactly what you are planning. Here was my recipe. "5a"
3lb pale LME
2lb wheat LME
1lb pils LME
.5 crystal 30 .5 belg pils steeping
2oz cascade
1007 German ale yeast

48 hour sour with .5lb 2row inoculation

20 minute boil 1.5 oz hops at 20 mins .5 at 5mins

Pitched yeast, poured out 1 gallon into my mini ferm onto 2 cups pasteurized mixed berries just to try it.

OG 1.04

Just tasted both and took first grav readings this morning and holy deliciousness. Best beer I've made yet. The berry one is spot on and so is the standard. Hops added just the right amount of bitterness and aroma to balance the sweet and sourness. Finished dry and light body, effervescent look matching the style.

I'm damn proud of this first go around!

FG 1.01

 

[HopHoarder]

I tasted my 5a after one week of US-05 fermentation. It has a nice sour bite to it and I quite like it. Gonna let it sit for another week in secondary to clear it up a bit.

 

[bknifefight]

I tasted my 5a after one week of US-05 fermentation. It has a nice sour bite to it and I quite like it. Gonna let it sit for another week in secondary to clear it up a bit.

It's a waste of time. Even at 35* in a keg for several months, a Berlinner Weisse will still be cloudy.

 

[Tiroux]

Hey quick question.. Let's say I have a tight schedule and can't brew when the sourness of the sour mash is at my taste, would cold stop the lacto? If I bring the vessel down in my cold chamber, in the 50s?

 

[bknifefight]

Getting it significantly out of the temperature range would stop the lacto, either up or down. I would bring it up to pasturization temperature just to be sure that it won't do any other souring.

 

[Tiroux]

Getting it significantly out of the temperature range would stop the lacto, either up or down. I would bring it up to pasturization temperature just to be sure that it won't do any other souring.

Makes sens...

Does anyone ever consider doing the sour mash in a carboy?

Drain, sparge, then transfer the wort to a sanitized carboy, then pitch lacto and put an airlock. It would be air sealed, and pretty soon full of CO2. Then transfer it again to boil kettle when it's done?

You'd say, why don't just pitch the lacto first, then yeast (after boil)? Well, I'm afraid to lacto would continue to eat unfermentable sugar after fermentation, and that's not what I want on my project. It's gonna be a Raspberry wheat beer around 4-5%. I would just want to add a little acidity to it, and make it ferment really quick.

 

[bknifefight]

I do my sour mash in the mash tun since it is a lot more insulated than a carboy would be. I dont think that lacto create CO2 either, otherwise you would have CO2 in the mash tun as well.

 

[Tiroux]

I do my sour mash in the mash tun since it is a lot more insulated than a carboy would be. I dont think that lacto create CO2 either, otherwise you would have CO2 in the mash tun as well.

Well, you have CO2 in the mash tun.

 

[Xpertskir]

I do my sour mash in the mash tun since it is a lot more insulated than a carboy would be. I dont think that lacto create CO2 either, otherwise you would have CO2 in the mash tun as well.

Lacto eats sugar producing byproducts of C02 and lactic acid.

 

[bknifefight]

I dont think the lacto eats any sugar during the length of a sour mash. I did a 36 hour one about 3 weeks ago and my brewhouse efficiency came out to be 85% which well overshot my expectations. If it ate any sugar, it was a tiny amount.

 

[GatorBeer]

I dont think the lacto eats any sugar during the length of a sour mash. I did a 36 hour one about 3 weeks ago and my brewhouse efficiency came out to be 85% which well overshot my expectations. If it ate any sugar, it was a tiny amount.

7 days at room temp and lacto ate almost all of my fermentables. This beer is going to be 1% hopefully when I had planned on a ~4%

 

[bknifefight]

Lacto is active at room temp?

 

[GatorBeer]

Lacto is active at room temp?

Active, but much slower. From my experience (~5 batches) I get the same sourness at either 2 days at 110F or 7-8 days at 70F.

 

[Xpertskir]

I dont think the lacto eats any sugar

So what exactly do you think the lacto is doing, if its not eating sugar?

 

[Tiroux]

Lacto don't produce co2 and dont eat sugar? We learn everyday...