Below 40% Effeciency... Would my blunders justify it?

[DustinHickey]

Hello,
I just tried my second attempt at all grain brewing yesterday. I did not have the correct hydrometer the first time so who knows how that worked but yesterday I ended up with below 40% effeciency and just wanted to know where to start looking to see what my problem was. Below is what I did:

Used "strike water calculater to determine volumes and temps"

13.5 lbs of grain

Had crushed at brew store ( not sure of % crush )

4.5 gal mash water for one hour @ 152 degree target temp. I think we were there for most of the mash, may have dropped to 148. ( had two different thermometers and both read differently).

Stirred every 15 min and checked temp ( again from 148 to 152 )

Had 5.8 PH during mash ( which is equal to 5.5 and is in range right? )

Sparged 3.5 gal @ 160 ish for 5 min then drained. grain bed may have been more like 150 after adding this. ( I know I should have brought it up to 170 instead and should have let sit for more than 5 min )

Was intending 1.070 grav for recipie... Ended up with 1.020... ( very bad )

I know we did a few things wrong but I was not expecting such a huge drop in efficiency and was wondering if any of you guys could point out what you think of each step above and how much each blunder would effect my yeild... Did my mistakes justify such a low yeild? And if i fix what I did wrong up there should i see more of an 75% efficiency or is there something else I am overlooking?


I appreciate the help,
Thanks,
Dustin Hickey

 

[LVBen]

I think you screwed up big time on the sparge. You need to sparge at a higher temperature for a longer period of time. You should sparge at 175F for 10 minutes. That might make the difference between 40% and 65%

 

[DustinHickey]

Thanks for the input Ben. I just want to be sure that when I try again this weekend that the issues above (if fixed) will fix my problem. considering I was below 40%, 65% would be a nice jump.

 

[CaptYesterday]

What temp was the wort you used for the hydrometer reading? Most hydrometers are calibrated at 60 or 68 degrees F. Higher temps equal artifically lower readings. Might be something to consider.

Other than that, did you actually watch your grain get crushed? 40% efficiency is close to what you might expect to see with uncrushed grain.

 

[annasdadhockey]

Even with those mistakes, there's no way you ended up at 1.020. I just don't see how that is possible, unless the crush on the grain was that bad, or not crushed at all.
BTW, not to pee on an already bad day, but you're efficiency is more like 21.5%(sorry).
Are you sure the grain was crushed?

EDIT: Also, what captYesterday said about temp and hydrometer readings.

 

[DustinHickey]

yea, I saw it get crushed. It was definatly not whole. Mash temp was 5.8 when it was @ 150 degrees. Did i mix that up? thought it was higher when hot. If I was mistaken and my PH was actually 6.1 would I see such a large drop in efficiency?

 

[ryan_george]

Doing multiple sparges will increase your efficiency by "washing" the grains several times. Try mashing slightly thicker or just do multiple sparges with less water.

But like others have said... 1.020 is too low. What was the temp when measuring the gravity? And was this just after mashing or after the boil/chill?

 

[scinerd3000]

im gonna have to say crush. Cold sparging cuts efficiency a little bit but check out braukaiser's (braukaiser.com) study of cold vs hot sparging and it shows only a small loss in efficiency.

Did the grain look like it was crushed or were there intact kernels? You should have some powder, small peices of crushed grain and hulls and no intact kernels for a good crush. Also deffintly check to see what temperature you needed to check the sample at- as Capt said, hydrometers are sensitive to temp.

 

[scinerd3000]

if pH was that high it could deffinitly mess with the conversions or impede them. What water did you use? filted, bottled etc. Consider getting pH 5.2 powder

 

[DustinHickey]

Oh hydrometer. My fault. Yea I waited until it was down to 60 degrees. Still 1.020. Hehe.. yea i know the efficiency was "below 40 %" thats why I am confused. Dont know what could make that happen. The grain was definatly crushed at the brew store in an electric grain mill of some kind. ( not the hand crank roller i think )

 

[DustinHickey]

PH was 5.8** during the mash at 150 degrees. thats ok right? The grain was definatly crushed. hulls and powder ect... I bought the grain from an online shop and brought it to the store to get crushed. Could it have been old grain?

**Sorry PH Reading was 5.8. not actual PH

 

[scinerd3000]

how were you checking pH? Did you store the electrode properly if using electric? Are you using strips and if so what kind. When in the mash did you check...

 

[scinerd3000]

the grain would have had to be pretty old for that to have a problem like that. Im guessing pH was high and thats what killed you although i guess its possible that the grain was old. Most online supliers go through them quickly so i doubt that was the issue. If there was a decent amount of powder and no intact kernels than the crush was at the very least somewhat ok.....What supplier did you order from and what was the grain bill? The other issue could have been an insufficient amount of digastric enzymes to convert the malt depending on what malts you used

 

[DustinHickey]

Checked the PH in Mid mash I think. It was 150 degrees. Using electric PH meter. Tested it in my tap water first which was about right at 8.0. when I checked mash I midway is saw 5.8 on the meter.

 

[bob1852]

where did you get your grain? Are you sure it was malted barley intended for brewing?

 

[DustinHickey]

Nah, Ive read up on mashing for a while now so I atleast think I know about what can or cant be mashed with or without other grains. Just to be sure, I used 13 Lbs of Organic Pale ale malt and 8 Oz. thomas faucett amber malt.

 

[DustinHickey]

I bought the grain at Rebel Brewer.com. Checked the grain analysis sheets too. I thought it looked good.

 

[scinerd3000]

Nah, Ive read up on mashing for a while now so I atleast think I know about what can or cant be mashed with or without other grains. Just to be sure, I used 13 Lbs of Organic Pale ale malt and 8 Oz. thomas faucett amber malt.

that is fine and contains enough digastric enzymes to convert itself. Im looking for some offical publications or links to try and explain the effect that would have on your conversion. pH 8.0 water is very alkaline and a pH 5.8 mash is higher than it should be for conversion. Some will still take place however it is much lower than in the window of 5.2-5.4(for optimum). They are very sensitive processes.

Most areas where people brew with very high pH ground water they will do darker beers so the roasted malts help lower the mashing pH...Pale beers generally better in areas with lower pH and soft water etc...

 

[Reelale]

Yikes! I don't sparge at all and the lowest I've had is 62%. You are not getting conversion, that is sure. I'm know pH affects the mash greatly, but you could put crushed grain in very base water, at the right temperature and extract more sugars than is the case here. Something ain't right here, but I don't think pH explains it. Malted grain, sufficient crush, and water at sufficient temperature will produce wort.

 

[DustinHickey]

Thanks Scinerd, So you think the PH is my main problem? I knew I was a bit out of the range but I didn't expect such a large hit from it. The book I am reading says you want to be in the "ballpark" so I guess I just didn't know what the ballpark was. I thought 5.8 was fairly good. What is the max / min PH my meter should read during the mash at 152 degrees for this to work?

 

[DustinHickey]

Thats what I assumed Reelale. I knew our process wasn't perfect but I cant think of anything we did that would produce horribly poor results like this. Unless it's just the combination off all my mistakes..?

 

[bob1852]

Have you calibrated your themometers? Maybe you were actually mashing at closer to 140 (or below) which might be a reason why you weren't getting conversion.

 

[permo]

wow, even with your low sparge temp and low amount of sparge water, you should have had a very complete conversion during your mash. I bet the grain wasn't milled properly.

I am a proponent of the dual batch sparge to help increase efficiency as opposed to a single batch sparge.

you should should for 1 to 1.5 quart of water per pound of grain in the mash, and at least the same amount if not more water for the sparge. The point of the mash is simply to convert the sugars, the sparge is where you "harvest" the sugars so to speak.

Regardless, something isn't right. your efficiency is almost too low to be correct.

 

[RedGlass]

Have you calibrated your themometers? Maybe you were actually mashing at closer to 140 (or below) which might be a reason why you weren't getting conversion.

And your hydrometer?

Sorry for asking the obvious, but it hasn't been stated yet and sometimes the answer is hiding in plain sight...

 

[Reelale]

Thats what I assumed Reelale. I knew our process wasn't perfect but I cant think of anything we did that would produce horribly poor results like this. Unless it's just the combination off all my mistakes..?

Therein lies the mystery. If you did everything exactly as you stated, there is no plausible, apparent reason you ended up with those results. If this is a pH issue, I will be very, very surpised. I have 7.0 pH water and before I started treating, I no-sparge brewed 2 or 3 batches with very light malts and very little dark malts. Always ended up in the mid-60s. I'm betting either your thermometers were way off, or it's the grain.

 

[scinerd3000]

Thanks Scinerd, So you think the PH is my main problem? I knew I was a bit out of the range but I didn't expect such a large hit from it. The book I am reading says you want to be in the "ballpark" so I guess I just didn't know what the ballpark was. I thought 5.8 was fairly good. What is the max / min PH my meter should read during the mash at 152 degrees for this to work?

yea its fairly sensitive to the process but i wouldnt expect it to take such a huge hit to efficiency.... The other question in my head is since you didint legitimately calibrate the pH meter by using a calibration solution (using tap water in the realm of 8 doesnt count), id venture to say that the numbers could have been even higher, maybe even over pH 6. If thats the case which wouldn't be too far fetched with water as alkaline as yours is, it may have damaged the enzymes enough to really screw your numbers over.

According to this experiemt something else is off other than your mash unless it was measured higher than around 6pH
braukaisers mashing profiles and experiemtns...

 

[toman8r]

yea, I saw it get crushed. It was definatly not whole. Mash temp was 5.8 when it was @ 150 degrees. Did i mix that up? thought it was higher when hot. If I was mistaken and my PH was actually 6.1 would I see such a large drop in efficiency?

The pH is higher when the sample is cooler. If you cooled your mash that read 5.8 at 150* to room temp it would read about 6.1 there. You also need to calibrate your pH meter before using it and you to keep the probe wet when storing it. If your meter wasn't calibrated beforehand the real pH could have been even higher than 5.8 which would definitely explain your poor efficiency.

I'm no expert on mashing science but I suggest you start reading section 3 of How To Brew and the articles on mashing and pH at Kaiser's site.

 

[DustinHickey]

I have not calibrated my thermometers so it is a potential problem and will double check when I get home from work. however, they should be close enough considering I acheive boil when my thermometer hits 212. wort boils at the same temp as water no? I didn't think you had to calibrate hydrometer so I will check that as well.

 

[DustinHickey]

Thanks for the help guys. I am definatly got acheiving conversion then and need to do a bit of work / research. Biggest culprits...

1. PH
2. Calibrate thermometers / hydrometer
3. Ensure grain crush is complete to be sure next time.
4. ?

 

[ryan_george]

I don't think that your main issue here is pH. Before I started correcting my pH, my mash would always end up at about 6-6.5 pH (brewing pale ales). I have never hit an efficiency lower than 65%.

I would ensure that your hydrometer and thermometer are calibrated and accurate.