Belgian Blonde Wyeast 1214

[safcraft]

Hi
I brewed a belgian 1.080 OG yesterday and planned to use a 4h starter with wyeast 1214, to try the activity method on other posts.
Problem was i did not know this was a slow starter, and even worse i may have a dead smack pack.
Yeast was manufactured on 12.01.2016 so its within the 6 months valid period but close to end.

8h on the starter... no activity
smells like only sugar wort
i dumped the 2l starter on the wort
24h later....no.activity what so ever
temp is 22 degrees celsius

Should i hold 2 more days to see if the yeast was a dud?
if so....can i throw in a pack of 1762 or 3787 on top of that and still save the beer?

thanks

 

[safcraft]

So....48h and nothing...
I think i will dump a 1762 pack later tonight

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I would give it another day. The older the yeast, the longer it takes to wake up. I have used 2 year old smack packs succesfully. It just took some time for them to get started. If you haven't already, find a good yeast calculator. I use YeastCalc. There is also Mr. Malty. You don't mention the size of the starter but a 4 hour starter on a single smack pack for a 1080 wort is probably underpitching. Given that, you may want to pitch more yeast anyway. I haven't used 1762 but 3787 is a great yeast with a nice flavor profile.

In the future, if your starter hasn't taken off when you are ready to pitch, just let the wort sit (properly sealed) and pitch later once you have a good active starter.

 

[safcraft]

Size of starter was 2 litres.
i was under pitching a litle to increase ester production on purpose.
But still 48h and nothing...temperature of wort is decreasing slowly so no yeast movement yet...
i have half a jar of 1762 ready to pitch....will wait 12h longer but no more
afraid to get an infection due to 3 days with sitting wort at 22 c

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

The 1762 should be a reasonable match for the 1214. At this point, it probably won't hurt to go ahead and pitch it. Maybe it will even wake up the 1214

 

[safcraft]

Its alive!!!
Almost 72h later it decided to take of. The 1762 was put back in the fridge ....
This is a lesson... some strains really do take their time!

 

[Nico93]

from Wyeast website :"It can be slow to start; however, it attenuates well."

p.s. in my opinion 22C for this yeast is too hot (banana!), i like to use it at 17/18 in the first days!

 

[eadavis80]

My smack pack never really inflated on my 1214 either, but I made a starter, but my starter did show signs of life and my Belgian started doing its thing well inside of 24 hours after pitching. In fact, I'll take a gravity reading tomorrow - 1 week after brew day - and I'm hoping FG is reached. Got about a 2-3" krausen out of this batch and as quick as it was to form it, the krausen sank back down by the next day. We'll see how it did tomorrow. Hoping for 1.008 or less.

 

[jjeffers09]

1762 will give you dry fruit flavors, I had experienced pear and dried apple at higher temps with a Belgian stout I brewed up a little over a year ago. Idk if I got much banana but the "fruitiness" will be stronger at 22C no question.

 

[safcraft]

Ok. Holly crap.
9 days in fermentation ... actually only 6 because the first 3 days Had no activity.
Bubbling stoped and i decided to take a gravity reading: 1.010
Way lower than antecipated...it sure worked well for such a slow starter.
Then i decided to smell it : nice fruity peachy smell.
Then i decided to taste it : aaarrg nasty nasty band aid medicinal horrible taste....damn

I know this is 1 week old...but still nevertheless i never tasted such a bad beer before...
its really nasty.
opinions?

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Bandaid taste, as I understand it, comes from phenols usually caused by chloramine in your water or some type of infection. I have heard some people attribute it to inadequate rinsing of equipment sanitized with chlorine rinses. Do you use local water and, if so, do you use Camden tablets? Of course, Belgian yeasts are all about the phenols but I don't think I've heard of high ferm temps causing bandaid phenols. Are you sure it's "bandaid" and not a strong banana?

Sounds like one of 3 possibilities - chloramine in the water (from source water or incomplete rinsing of chlorine sanitizer), infection, or high ferm temps. I don't think any of those fade much with time but try waiting and see what happens. If it is an infection, just watch out for potential bottle bombs.

 

[safcraft]

Some more info, i am trying to nail the cause of this.

On brewday i made 2 beers with same wort.
The higher gravity 1.080 was dumped with Wyeast 1214 and had the 3 day lag time to start as mentioned in the posts before.
The lower gravity 1.042 was dumped with Kolsh WLP029 , that had a 3L starter with full fermentation, decanted and pitched. Started blowing of the tube in 6h.

So now, 9 days later both stopped bubbling. Both reached 1.010 gravity.
Seem finished or close to finish. Both look good and smell good.

The Belgian 1214 is definitly horrible to taste. I was thinking of what the taste reminded me and i the closest is : Mothballs / naphthalene !!!
REally really strong taste, impossible to drink for now...

The light Kolsh one....perfect. Good smell of malt, good smooth taste and perfectly balanced.

I used local tap water, which is very soft and usually low in chlorines.
I do not use Camden tablets. Maybe i will in the future.

Now...for conclusions :
1. Chloramines - i would assume both would taste bad if this was the cause. Both used the same water , plus i topped the Kolsh with 3L of unboiled tap water to reach OG....so this would be more prone to chloramines....

2. Sanitation - i usually clean everything very well and rinse with water. I only use Starsan which suposed to be chlorine free. I used same sanitation technique on both beers, as have used in past brews. Also used same water in other belgians using 3787 and 1762...and never got this flavor.

3. High Fermentation Temp - well it was high but not VERY high. It started at 70F and self raised to 74F. It is now at 72F. I did a Belgian with 1762 at 78F with no problems whatsoever!

4. Infection - i can see 2 possibilities here, one is the 3 day lag time since pitch and first evidence of fermentation. Oxidation ? Don't know what oxidation tastes like, never had a bad batch before. The other is poor sanitation, but as said i normally am quite meticulous.

Could this be just due to 1 week old Wyeast 1214 ? Never used this strain before and have read that it produces a lot of phenols.
I will wait 2 more weeks and see.

Will a transfer to secondary help or hurt this "cleaning" ?
Assuming i want the yeast to "clean after themselves" the primary is better?

 

[FatDragon]

It could definitely be a green beer flavor that will age out. Fermentation temperature is a distinct possibility as well. S-04 gives some really bad flavors in that that temperature range even though it's really nice just 6-8 degrees lower, so it's not unprecedented for a yeast strain to turn from a prince into a frog over a few degree difference.

The third possibility I would consider is that in the three day lag time from pitch to active fermentation your beer picked up an infection of bacteria or wild yeast. No matter how sanitary your process is, it's inevitable that some wild microorganisms will be in your beer at all points in the brewing process. Usually they never get going because the yeast pitch outcompetes them for nutrients and you never know they were there, but a three day lag period gives them a better chance than they would have in most cases.

 

[safcraft]

Transfered to secondary after 12 days in primary.
Tastes exacltly the same. like pure alcohol. Maybe this yeast produces off flavors at 74F and high gravity...1.084 down to 1.010.
I kind of think it tastes like sanitary alcohol . not nice.
i will keep it in secondary 2 weeks. if taste is the same i will not bottle.

 

[safcraft]

The more i read about it, the more i am convinced that this was a temperature problem. Although WY1214 is in 14-24 range , the beer fermented at 22-23 which is close to the top of the range.
Maybe this would be ok in a dark beer....but in a blonde made with 90% Pilsner....it produced Fusel Alcohols. Too much really.

From experience, what do you say? If the taste tones down in 2 weeks time, should i bottle or do not bother ? If it really is fusel...will it completly go away with conditioning time or maybe just mellow a bit ?

 

[Nico93]

the first time i used this yeast was a belgian blonde, i fermented at 19/20 and the charather was to belgian for my taste, this charather dosen't change a lot in the time, but in your case the problem if different and i think age will help you, sure i'd to bottle it!

 

[safcraft]

After 1 week in secondary it appears to be starting to form a white layer on the top of the beer.
Infeccion confirmed?
Still tastes like band aid...

View attachment 1466012921878.jpg

 

[safcraft]

Bottled a few.
I could detect a litle tone down on the bad flavor. still very proeminent but like 80% of what it was.
Beer is very cloudy...still lots of yeast in suspension.
Lets wait a week and see how the bottled ones taste like.

View attachment 1466060530149.jpg

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

The more i read about it, the more i am convinced that this was a temperature problem. Although WY1214 is in 14-24 range , the beer fermented at 22-23 which is close to the top of the range.

If you were fermenting at 22-23 the beer was likely several degrees warmer. Possibly in the range of 27-28. Definitely fusel territory. However, bandaid and hot alcohol are two different things. Nothing to lose if you let it go for a few weeks and see how it is. Just be sure to keep the bottles some place safe in case you get bottle bombs.

 

[secondbase]

After 1 week in secondary it appears to be starting to form a white layer on the top of the beer.
Infeccion confirmed?
Still tastes like band aid...

That is definitely a pellicle forming on your beer. You have an infection. Bandaid is an off-flavor produced by brettanomyces so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the culprit. Make sure any equipment that touched this beer is very thoroughly cleaned and sanitized. Honestly, I would replace the plastic cold side pieces that touched this beer to prevent further infections. If it is indeed brettanomyces it will continue to attenuate the beer and could produce bottle bombs. I would keep those bottles in a plastic tub so if they explode nobody gets hurt. If you decide to keep them, At the first sign of overcarbonation, stick the rest of the bottles in the fridge to halt fermentation and drink them as fast as possible or dump them. I think you should dump the batch, personally.

 

[safcraft]

So i am 99% convinced it is infected. the walls on the fermentor are cloudy white now

View attachment 1466248774347.jpg

 

[safcraft]

A week in the bottle and still very cloudy. It should be begining to clear by now.
Probably a sign that the Brett is still eating and will produce bottle bombs.
Will wait a few more days to pop one open and if nasty dump the hole thing and move on...

 

[safcraft]

Last post
Opened the bottles...some very carbed already and tasting awfull.
Dumped the hole thing and moved on

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Sir, I salute your fallen comrades with a 12 gun salute .... the result of an infection I had 2 years ago.

 

[safcraft]

Ok so not last post.
The Belgian ale is long gone and i thought the Brett bug with it.
So i decided to bottle my Kolsh that was fermenting in the garage. brought it up and opened the fermenter. it was the cleanest beer ever made. very transparent loooking and no signs of infection.
tasted amazing...

2 days later after bottling....

A peliccle is forming in ALL bottle necks!!!! Aargg the Brett found a way into this beer also...while bottling!
how can this be?
i used starsan in all bottles...every tool...every bucket
I just did not spray the walls of my WC!!?? CAN the Brett be airborne and will contaminate every beer i bottle within that room???

What will it do to the beer? I was planning on drinking this batch on a party in 2 weeks time!!!

 

[safcraft]

beer close to finish carb
but tastes odd....
i can taste the brett profile ontop of the kolsh yeast.....strange...

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Hey, you just created a new brew - Brett Kolsch! Submit it it to BJCP for a new style designation. Seriously, I've heard a number of people talk about infected beers that became good sours. You never know ...

 

[secondbase]

It sounds like you need to replace all of your cold side bottling equipment. I can't recall if your bottle cleaning practices were mentioned in this thread. Tell us about your bottling process. How are you cleaning your bottles? Are you sanitizing caps?

 

[safcraft]

I just bleached the Hell out of my bottling and fermentor equipment. 2 days later i dibbed all in chemipro and rinsed well.
I bottled another beer .. a rochefort clone and there are no signs of infection . Maybe it was just a bad double batch. will be more carefull from now on when sanitizig equipment.
Meanwhile i am waiting for the Brett Kolsh to set in the cold. Maybe the odd taste dissipates with time and turns into a pleasent beer.

 

[safcraft]

UPDATE :

Holy S**** the brew is drinkable !
I can now confirm that the "Brett Kolsh" tastes like a Duvel (Belgian Blonde).
No ideia why....but the profile sure remembers a bitter belgian blonde.

The Kolsh background kicks in in the end, namingly the malt profile.
But the beer is completly overwhelmed by the belgian profile ...
This was probably done by the Brett contamination...

Overall it is a drinkable beer. Just not what i was planning for !
One thing is certain...i will not be able to reproduce it again...so it is 1 of a kind !!
Cheers to all..

Remember to only dump your beer after carbonation is done and you drink it.
Turned out that both batches were contamined, and the 1st one went down the drain, while the 2nd one will go down the throat !