Beginner - wanting to start with All-Grain?

[Knightshade]

If you are willing to read and study extensively before you spend money and start brewing, all grain is very doable with great beer on the first try (and not even just with BIAB). If you aren’t, start with simple extract brewing.

i started with all grain and a mash tun but I probably studied for 2 months taking extensive notes before I started. In fact, I enjoy the self education part probably more than the actual brewing.

So I've already said my bit..but your comment really resonates. I have a friend in another state that started at the same time as I did..which was 2 years ago this month actually. He too started on a Pico C and ended up with a Foundry. I've had my share of mistakes, but I know where I went wrong, read, researched addressed it..then made other mistakes..but that is part of the process I think and I enjoy the learning aspect of it. I've brewed..I think 18 batches..it is in my sig, but I've dumped 2. I've got another fermenting and another conditioning, but I won't make a verdict on those until I taste them. So hopefully they go on the <-- side of the /

At any rate...my friend has brewed maybe 4 batches in the same amount of time and dumped every single one of them. He has never provided a lot of detail as to why, so I can't help him out other than just saying "This isn't good." I did a remote brewday with him the other week..and it was fun. But...there were definitely a lot of "Wait..don't do that." "Whoa..are you sure you." "Wait..did you remember to." "Because...well...because that is what you're supposed to do."

I read a lot, take a lot of notes. Feels like he just wants to wing it..or ask me. But to his cred, the dude is a BBQ Masta!

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Or maybe buy and drink up enough of beers that come in swing top bottles like Grolsch. Then one won't need a capper or caps right off the bat.

Though Grolsch are green bottles, if kept in the dark while carbonating and conditioning till they are drank, the color is no issue IMO.

I've never used swing top bottles myself, so I can't say if they are worse or better. But it seems that not having to buy a capper and caps will save a few bucks till it's known whether brewing is more than just a passing whim.

Yeah I have used a few flip tops and they are pretty cool except they don't fit in my bottle drain rack unless I pop the bails off the bottles. I actually seldom bottle, but I think it is an essential skill and also bottling has a cheaper entrance fee than kegging, so bottling at least the first batch or two ought to be a standard rite of passage.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

It seems some people are confusing "extract brewing" with "brewing an old kit that you just mix with water." While I do enjoy the all-grain side of brewing, there is a lot that can be done with extract brewing. Places like Northern Brewer and More Beer have an excellent selection of extract kits (most with steeping grains), the book "Brewing Classic Styles" is a great source of extract recipes, and you are free to get as involved as you want with creating extract recipes...though starting off with a recipe or kit is where I would suggest.

The 2021 AHA Homebrewer of the Year award went to an extract brewer! AHA homebrewer of the year

I am a huge fan of 2.5 gallon stove top BIAB. I think it is a great place to start with BIAB brewing. The biggest challenge is a lack of starter equipment sets, recipe kits or published recipes for that batch size. Love2Brew (www.love2brew.com) is one of the few vendors in the US that I have seen with 2.5 gallon kits, but you can pretty much just divide a 5 gallon recipe in half.

If you are good with spending $400+ for a hobby that you may or may not stick with, one of the electric all-in-one systems seem like a decent starting place. I like that the Anvil Foundry can be swapped from 120V to 240V with a simple change of the plug. Most systems are 120V or 240V specific.

One benefit of extract brewing, is that you can start off with a 4-gallon pot (you can likely find for $20 or less). You can do a concentrated boil on your stove and chill the wort with an ice bath + chilled water. With 5 gallon BIAB, you ideally will have a 10+ gallon kettle, a high power heat source and a chiller. Many of the all-in-one systems provide all this (though I am not sure I would be happy with a 120V system).

Note that even if you purchase something like the BrewZilla, you still need everything in one of the basic $99 kits. Just don't get one with a nice kettle.

To me, starting with a basic starter equipment kit + extract ingredient kit is a great place to start.

Good points. And also, familiarity with extracts is a big help when going for that first really big beer. The brewer can get the flavor profile just right with a well conceived mash bill, then use an appropriate extract to add crazy amounts of fermentables with no waste, after mashing the grains and squeezing the life out of the bag. My beers usually run about 1.075 OG but I have been thinking about doing a batch at 1.100 or better, and the easy way to get those kind of numbers is to add LME right before the boil.

 

[Kharnynb]

It depends a lot of how much money you are willing to spend on the initial layout and if you are certain you will continue.

If money is less of an object, it's better to buy some good kit immediately, most of it can be used for extract anyway, but it saves you from rebuying stuff down the line.
for me, the things I wished I had bought immediately instead of cheaping out:
-chapman style metal fermenters(this was the big one for me, easy to clean, can dump hot wort straight into it if you do no-chill or chill in the tub), can even double as your first kettle in a pinch.
-an electric biab kettle, a decent "cheapish" one like the one I use is about 300ish, and they really make it so much easier to mash and boil, especially if you have 220v available.

 

[franknbeans]

Hi everyone!

Thank you all so much for the flooding of comments on my post. You all have given me a lot to think about as I dive into this exciting journey. I'm really looking forward to getting started and will be definitely be refering back to everyone's advice throughout the process.

Cheers!

Where abouts are you located? I'm looking to sell the beginner kit I got when I first started last year when Rona happened. I'm near Sacramento in CA.. maybe we can work something out. you can go either direction with straight extract or try BIAB on what I have.

 

[jrgtr42]

To each their own, and no offense meant but...

I started with an extract kit...it was like buying a cake mix, adding water, and ending up with an edible (drinkable) result. But like "hotbeer" said above, the whole process was missing something (for me), the creative part.

Honestly, that's exactly why I recommend starting with a recipe kit. You have to learn the process before getting creative. Just like a guitar player wouldn;t start by jamming with Eddie Van Halen, or a beginning golfer wouldn't join Tiger Woods for a round, making a pastry bourbon barrel imperial stout from scratch as your first brew is a recipe () for disaster.
With a recipe kit, you know that at the end, presuming everything goes well, you'll end up with a known entity as a reward - this particular pale ale, or porter or whatever. This is more about getting the procedures down, like a guitar player needs to learn the chords and a golfer gets confortable with their swing.
Once you're confident with that part, then understanding the why and how of recipe creation is much easier, and more likely to result in a good beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My beers usually run about 1.075 OG but I have been thinking about doing a batch at 1.100 or better, and the easy way to get those kind of numbers is to add LME right before the boil.

I brew a small batch OG 90-ish barley wine maybe once a year.

A couple of years ago, I brewed it twice. Once as a double mash and once as a "partial mash" (mashed an OG 70-ish all-grain wort and added DME to get to OG 90-ish). (aside: this year, I brewed it as a full volume mash / boil - I'll bottle it soon).

DME/LME is not a direct 1-to-1 substitution for the equivalent base malt. When the DME/LME is made, they take just the water out, leaving the minerals from the wort behind. Different brands of DME/LME likely have a different mineral content (depends on where the DME/LME was made). Ingredient selection is likely to be a key factor in making a really good (rather than just good) "partial mash" barley wine.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

My best advice is to get in cheap by starting with good used equipment. Some people get out of this hobby as fast as they get in after spending hundreds. I have gotten great deals on big carboys and totes of stuff. I have seen killer deals in other states where people have damn near given their stuff away. Look at FB marketplace a couple times a day. Save those $'s for grain. Good luck to ya !

 

[bwible]

I think the biggest hurdle to just starting with all grain is recipe formulation/knowing all the different grains and understanding what they contribute.

To me, there is the grain side of things and the hop side of things. And there are many beer yeasts. If you’ve never brewed before you don’t know munich malt from vienna malt from biscuit malt, etc. Or Cascade from Amarillo from Fuggles, etc. Or what yeast is for what. So how are you supposed to put a recipe together and understand it?

This is a big part of where extract recipes can be of value. Extract kits or recipes take most of the grain side recipe stuff out of it and you can concentrate on techniques and getting your equipment to do what you want and also makes the hop part of it more up front. It’s part of a learning curve.

Either way you’ll be following other people’s recipes to start. How do you pick decent recipes that are supposed to make a good beer if you don’t understand ingredients? If you start with a bad recipe you won’t get good results even if you do everything right.

 

[bwible]

I am a huge fan of 2.5 gallon stove top BIAB. I think it is a great place to start with BIAB brewing. The biggest challenge is a lack of starter equipment sets, recipe kits or published recipes for that batch size. Love2Brew (www.love2brew.com) is one of the few vendors in the US that I have seen with 2.5 gallon kits, but you can pretty much just divide a 5 gallon recipe in half.

…(though I am not sure I would be happy with a 120V system).

This is where I’m at. I settled on 3 gallon batches a long time ago. It’s a decent batch size giving me a case plus a 6 pack out of each batch. I found I don’t need 50 bottles of beer out of a batch, which is what 5 gallons gives you. I originally settled on 3 gallons because of available equipment. I can use a 5 gallon brewpot. I calculate my recipes in BeerTools as 3.5 gallon recipes, collect 4 gallons and boil down to 3.5 so that I actually get 3 gallons of finished beer after losses. You can convert 5 gallon recipes to 3.5 gallons by just multiplying everything by .7

I use a 5 gallon carboy to ferment in and I have 3 gallon carboys if I want to settle the beer in a second stage. I have 3 gallon kegs. I guess if 2.5 gallon carboys had been available I might be doing 2.5 gallon batches.

Side benefits of the smaller batches are that everything is easier to handle, and I can brew inside on the kitchen stove.

I bought an Anvil Foundry 6.5. It works fine on 120V for what I am doing. I like being able to adjust temp and do step mashes. Biggest consideration is that it has an 8 lb grain capacity. That is great for an average 3 gallon batch. If I want to do stronger beers I can always supplement with extract.

Everything has come a long way from when I started homebrewing in 1997.

 

[IslandLizard]

Either way you’ll be following other people’s recipes to start.

Not necessarily.
One could use the ingredient list of many commercially sold kits and use as is, or as a template to build or adapt your own.

Most better extract kits (and recipes) include steeping grains instead of a can of "specialty LME," that may have lingered on a shelf in some shop for years.

 

[IslandLizard]

I settled on 3 gallon batches a long time ago.

It's a much more logical volume for many homebrewers, indeed!

In that light, 2 to 3 gallon batches are the better size for beginning homebrewers too. 5 gallons seems to be very arbitrary, and the right volume of beer to brew depends on the individual and projected use.

By choosing a smaller volume to brew, such beginning homebrewer gets the opportunity to brew more often and more varied, and doesn't have to deal handling the larger and more cumbersome volumes and eventually may get stuck having to drink all of it.

I think 1 gallon is a bit (too) small, though.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

a can of [some ingredient] that may have lingered on a shelf in some shop for years.

Agreed - it's well known that stale ingredients make bad beer.

From what I've been reading here (and in a couple of other places) is that there are a couple of on-line home brew stores that are selling style specific LME that is arriving fresh and making good beer.

It may be time for me to "put those ancedotals to the test".

 

[PCABrewing]

In that light, 2 to 3 gallon batches are the better size for beginning homebrewers too. 5 gallons seems to be very arbitrary, and the right volume of beer to brew depends on the individual and projected use.

It (five gallons) probably was based on the readily available size of carboys and buckets.

I agree one gallon is probably not worth the effort.
My knees would have been happier if I had been carrying 3 gallons down the basement steps last night VS six!

 

[PCABrewing]

Not necessarily.
One could use the ingredient list of many commercially sold kits and use as is, or as a template to build or adapt your own.

A tool like Beersmith is your friend here.

 

[IslandLizard]

From what I've been reading here (and in a couple of other places) is that there are a couple of on-line home brew stores that are selling style specific LME that is arriving fresh and making good beer.

I didn't mean to knock the whole genre of style specific LME, I too have seen some promising products in that line appear lately.

It may be time for me to "put those ancedotals to the test".

For the larger benefit of our community of extract brewers? That ought to be very appreciated!

Now steeping 1-2 pounds of mixed "specialty malts" is so simple, and with endlessly more variation than cans of LME can ever offer. Same for adding an ounce of hops here and there.

I understand all those steps adding up, in addition to sourcing the ingredients. Duncan Hines' style Brewing won't go away anytime soon. But we may have the ability now to do it so much better.
I'm serious.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I think the biggest hurdle to just starting with all grain is recipe formulation/knowing all the different grains and understanding what they contribute.

To me, there is the grain side of things and the hop side of things. And there are many beer yeasts. If you’ve never brewed before you don’t know munich malt from vienna malt from biscuit malt, etc. Or Cascade from Amarillo from Fuggles, etc. Or what yeast is for what. So how are you supposed to put a recipe together and understand it?

This is a big part of where extract recipes can be of value. Extract kits or recipes take most of the grain side recipe stuff out of it and you can concentrate on techniques and getting your equipment to do what you want and also makes the hop part of it more up front. It’s part of a learning curve.

Either way you’ll be following other people’s recipes to start. How do you pick decent recipes that are supposed to make a good beer if you don’t understand ingredients? If you start with a bad recipe you won’t get good results even if you do everything right.

All true and I am in the same camp, promoting an extract kit for first batch. Now it doesn't take much of a recipe to make a drinkable beer, as long as the steps are performed correctly. Two 5 lb bags of generic two-row mashed BIAB and hopped an ounce or two in a 60 minute boil with cascade or other popular hop, pitched with an envelope of US-05 will make a trouble free beer with very few tricks up its sleeve. There is no need to overthink it for the first batch's ingredients, and trying to make the exact clone of Leffe Blond first time at bat is probably not going to end well and will cost twice what a first batch should cost. A lot of even very popular recipes are to my taste and in my view unnecessarily complex. I think a first timer would be overwhelmed, and that is not a desirable entry into this thing of ours. A simple single malt recipe is a not too terribly complicated way to get started.

Still, even a very straightforward recipe isn't as simple as a good kit of ingredients featuring extract, with a bag of blended steeping grains. Everything is picked out and packaged already. No need to ask on a forum "Which yeast is the best yeast?" or "What is the most popular hop?" type questions. You just read through the instructions a couple of times, ask about anything you don't understand, and proceed simple step by simple step. And a very good beer will be the result if all instructions were followed exactly. It's how I started and I was extremely pleased with batch 0001, an extract kit from Northern Brewer called Block Party Amber Ale. I made two more batches using the same kit, and a batch doubling up two kits of ingredients but still for 5 gallons that I called "Doppel Block". And I did I think 4 or 5 LME only batches, no particular recipe, that were also pretty good though TBH while they had more ABV, the BPAA had a nicer flavor, body, aroma and appearance. I moved to BIAB mostly just to save a few bucks per batch. Is the beer "better"? Yeah. I would certainly put my batches up head to head against the BPAA kit, but success, REAL success, with grain, has depended on knowing a lot of TECHNIQUE, at least as much as knowing my ingredients and having a good recipe. The finer points of brewing technique can be a handful to learn and follow on the first time at bat. A good extract kit does away with half of it or more. Clean and sanitize. Steep grains then discard. Add hops and boil. Chill to pitch temp, transfer to fermenter. Pitch yeast. Wait two weeks, keep some water or everclear in the air lock. Bottle it, or keg it.

And a couple of years in, I am STILL ironing out my technique. But those NB kits were dead easy to get spot on. I didn't have to learn to brew, to make them work. And when there is no trial and error, there is a lot fewer errors.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But we may have the ability now to do it so much better.

The ability to "do so much better" has been around for a while.

• Basic Brewing Radio Aug 25, 2005
• Basic Brewing Radio Nov 17, 2005.

DME/LME product information sheets from Briess have, for many years, indicated what color to expect from a fresh package.

Recently (at least for me, but I don't brew with LME at the moment):

• BYO Dec 2020 has an article on how to assess the freshness of DME/LME.
• One of the online stores I mentioned (see #43) is mentioning this

which is "new to me" (but may have been there for a while, as I don't brew with LME at the moment).​

​

I too have seen some promising products in that line appear lately.

The community of active extract brewers is already using them and reporting good results.

 

[IslandLizard]

The ability to "do so much better" has been around for a while. [...]

Absolutely!
I'm not rebutting these examples and resources, they're very good. But a typical beginning homebrewer is not aware of them.
They read the (usually outdated) instruction sheet that comes with the kit, and hopefully some Palmer and HBT.

For example, SRM is still a mystical judgment for most brewers, and (typically) an after-the-fact test for LME freshness, yet used in 99.9% of extract kits sold without a manufacturing date.

I've brewed very good Ambers, Pale Ales, IPAs, Saisons, etc., using LME, poured fresh from my LHBS barrel. I read and reviewed many chapters and processes in How to Brew, several times over. Those were also brewed during my novice brewing years, before I discovered HBT and joined a homebrew club. So yeah, many improvements came then and quickly. Would any of my early, novice extract brews hold its own against what I brew now? Maybe one could, a Great Lakes Christmas Ale clone.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For example, SRM is still a mystical judgment for most brewers, and (typically) an after-the-fact test for LME freshness, yet used in 99.9% of extract kits sold without a manufacturing date.

As I mentioned above, information is available to evaluate the quality of LME before it is added to the boil kettle.

Maybe someone will develop and document a detailed process for doing this.

 

[kartracer2]

In my opinion I would never "recommend" a new brewer start with all grain for the first brew. (or 2-3) There is enough things to worry about with your first couple of batches with out adding to them.
With that said if you are someone that cooks from scratch that changes things a bit. You know how important temps and timing matter to the overall success of the project. Chances are you know your stove and utensils, those parts of the equation have been tried and proven. We have to remember, for most of us, it's the destination (drinkable beer) not just the journey (AG, Mini mash, Extract) for our hobby.
As far as cost, I wont touch that one as each of us have our own budget. I'll just say with a $140.00 (+/-) equipment kit that includes a tried and true boxed 5gal. extract beer kit (you will need to supply bottles) you can be drinking home brew in a few weeks. The sky is the limit on the top side.
On the somewhat derailed part of this thread, LME needs to be date stamped like yeast IMHO. As consumers we are at the mercy of the suppliers to sell us products as fresh as possible. I am sure most of the larger players do a good job at that as return sales makes their world go round and round. I wish the major players, (MB, NB/MS, AIH for example), had a presents on the forums. I think I know why they don't but it would be a sign they did care.
I've rambled enough for now, good luck @miss.toonchie on your journey and in finding your destination.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

With that said if you are someone that cooks from scratch that changes things a bit.

It is probably an important point. People enter this hobby with a wide variety of backgrounds. Somebody with a solid background in cooking (and all the cleaning involved!) with maybe some experience with sourdough starters or other fermented foods might be able to jump right in.

 

[PCABrewing]

For me the biggest challenging to starting AG was overcoming the fear that I'd screw it up.
I am glad that I already had several years of extract brewing behind me but I would not say that is a requirement.

I look at it this way; AG simply inserts the few steps at the front of the brew day that are needed to create your own extract, kinda. I say that because once the runnings are in the kettle it is not any different than brewing with extract.
There is a whole set of things that you learn to do and perfect your skill at doing that occurs from that point forward and it is the same no matter AG or extract.
Having those skills in your toolbox takes 60% of the stress off so you can focus on learning how to and perfecting your mash skills.

As for equipment, from the boil forward it is all the same stuff so doing extract first doesn't waste any money on gear that will be obsolete with AG.
Of course there is always opportunity to spend more money on gear whether you do AG or not .

 

[dan46nbrew]

I started with all grain because I knew eventually I would not want to use extract. I have 3 brews down so far and I've made mistakes with each one and am sure will make more but I've learned a lot. Even with my first brew the beer came out really good. So I say go for it! Even if you mess up it will probably still make beer at the end of the day.

 

[Bobby_M]

There will be mistakes made regardless of where you start. There are a few EXTRA ways to screw up a brew day with all grain that you don't have with extract, but not many. As long as one goes into it understanding that the first few batches may not be great, no big deal.

 

[Martys1]

Hi all! I am brand new to this world of home brewing. I have not yet purchased my equipment/first kit because I am trying to decide what type of brewing I should start with before I make my purchase. Originally, I was looking at buying a kit from Northern Brewer that was recommended by some friends. Recently, I have discovered the idea to jump straight into all grain brewing instead of starting with extract. There is a lot of support for either method the more I read online, but I dont want to get in too over my head by trying to start with BAIB. I read some reviews and articles talking about the functionality and great price of the BrewZilla and how that can be used for BAIB - thoughts?

Sorry if this seems all over the place. There is a lot to read and learn as I journey into home brewing, but I wanted some advice before I make my first equipment purchase! I am a graduate student so my finances are important and I don't want to get equipment that I may want to replace sooner ratehr than later which has also guided me some towards starting with all grain.

Any and all comments/advice is very much welcomed! Thanks!

Hi all! I am brand new to this world of home brewing. I have not yet purchased my equipment/first kit because I am trying to decide what type of brewing I should start with before I make my purchase. Originally, I was looking at buying a kit from Northern Brewer that was recommended by some friends. Recently, I have discovered the idea to jump straight into all grain brewing instead of starting with extract. There is a lot of support for either method the more I read online, but I dont want to get in too over my head by trying to start with BAIB. I read some reviews and articles talking about the functionality and great price of the BrewZilla and how that can be used for BAIB - thoughts?

Sorry if this seems all over the place. There is a lot to read and learn as I journey into home brewing, but I wanted some advice before I make my first equipment purchase! I am a graduate student so my finances are important and I don't want to get equipment that I may want to replace sooner ratehr than later which has also guided me some towards starting with all grain.

Any and all comments/advice is very much welcomed! Thanks!

Hi , recently purchased a bunch of stuff from one person on Craigslist.My neighbor I brewed with forwarded an ad that had a solid oak bar w marble and 4 faucets sitting on a keezer w/a 5&20 aluminum tanks dbl regulators 2 Cronus a copper chiller line cleaner bottle of starsanbrushes plastic brew boy and 2 cronies for the whopping price of( drum roll) four hundred bucks , and it was all new equipment to him.So I guess my advice is to check Craigslist and FBMarketpl daily , type beer, beer brewing, etc I also purchased a brewers best kit so I’m brewing extract kits and partial mash. In a few days I will get my first 2 all grain kits blonde ale and ipa
Good luck

 

[deuc224]

I started with all grain and dont regret it one bit. If money isnt an issue, go all grain but you will spend more upfront on all grain IMO. Once you spend on everything, then its smooth sailing from there on out. Im using yeast i multiplied about a year ago and still have vials in the freezer thatll last me another 2 years. Also dont let anyone tell you yeast expires on the date, those bad boys are extremely resilient.

 

[davidabcd]

AG is nowhere near equal to extract as far as getting it close to right the first time. If someone wants to make potentially bigger mistakes by doing AG first, that's cool. Some may be fine but that would be the minority. With extract, you can eek out a drinkable beer right off the bat.
The potential for making errors that you can't rebound from with AG is far greater than with an extract kit.
I'm sure AG seems like a piece of cake for those that have been doing it for a while.
The safest advice for a novice brewer is to go buy an extract kit from a reputable producer. All else is too steep of a learning curve for most everyone.

 

[hotbeer]

Just to be a little on the contrary side...

I didn't find starting with all grain that difficult. And my first brew was really good too. And my friends I gave some bottles thought so also.

And I also did BIAB with that first brew. However I started with a 1 gallon kit.

I'd agree that dealing with the grain to do a 5 gallon batch and even the boil that really needs a high power burner will have a lot of noobs guessing what to get and what to do when things don't go as planned. Just the handling of that large amount of grain will make for a lot of possible unforeseen goofs at the last minute.

However scaling back to 2 or less gallons will leave one something they can do on a kitchen stove with normal size stock pots or canning pots. The grain amount/weight will be much more manageable and even the fermenting vessel doesn't have to be more than a jug, bucket or other container that you can put a lid on.

Experience can be had with little needed investment other than a hydrometer, thermometer and a grain kit. And the hydrometer isn't completely necessary. But it'll end some guessing and they are inexpensive, so get one.

As one builds experience with brewing, then they can see easier where they might want to go with higher dollar equipment.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For about $15 (ebook), one can obtain a start with either DME/LME or "all-grain" brewing:

• How to Brew, 4e (2017) chapter 1 has a process for 5 gal batches using DME/LME using a stove as the heat source.
• Speed Brewing (2015), chapters 1 & 2 has a process for kegging 1.75 gal all-grain batches using a stove as a heat source.