Beersmith and Triple Decoction Problem

[DPBISME]

I am doing my first triple decoction for a Berliner Weise and think I am having a problem.

For my final decoction the amount of the Mash it wants me to pull is every last bit of the grain in the Mash Tun... or so it seems.

From my reading I should only be pulling about a third (1/3) to half(1/2)

So I am wondering if I set Beersmith up correctly...


Berliner Weiss

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 65.5 %
4 lbs 12.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 34.5 %
3.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 3 4.6 IBUs
2.0 pkg Berliner Weisse Blend (White Labs #WLP630) [50.28 ml] Yeast 4 -
1.0 pkg Lactobacillus Bacteria (White Labs #WLP677) [50.28 ml] [Add to Secondary] Yeast 5 -


Mash Name: Decoction Mash, Triple Berliner Weise
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 12.0 oz
Sparge Water: 9.25 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Acid Rest Add 31.50 qt of water at 99.8 F 97.0 F 45 min
Protein Rest Decoct 8.03 qt of mash and boil it 122.0 F 60 min
Saccharification Decoct 13.13 qt of mash and boil it 154.0 F 15 min
Mash Out Decoct 8.91 qt of mash and boil it 168.0 F 10 min

 

[Denny]

The decoctions get thinner as you go. The first decoction is all grain. The second is grain and wort. The third is all wort.

 

[Cyclman]

+1, final decoction is all liquid.

 

[DPBISME]

The decoctions get thinner as you go. The first decoction is all grain. The second is grain and wort. The third is all wort.

Thank...

Well this was the second... hence my problem...

I read I should use 1.5 to 2 quarts per pound of grain and elected to go on the high side with 2 quarts per pound.

I think I will try less next time (1.5 quarts per pound) and just add water to the decoction if it gets to thick.

I don't think I got complete conversion but what ever I made... it will be beer.

Last night I tossed in three WLP630s (Berliner Weisse Blend- all dated July), an old Brett, and an old Lacto.

I figure since this thing is so low gravity they should work fine... If not, some dry yeast will go in tonight.

DPB

 

[SpeedYellow]

The decoctions get thinner as you go. The first decoction is all grain. The second is grain and wort. The third is all wort.

I don't do decoctions normally, but I've never heard this. Source?

 

[Denny]

I don't do decoctions normally, but I've never heard this. Source?

Almost anything that talks about decoction.

 

[DPBISME]

I don't do decoctions normally, but I've never heard this. Source?

Here is a good explanation as I have ever seen.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

 

[SpeedYellow]

Almost anything that talks about decoction.

Such as? I've always simply heard that you want mostly grain and little liquid, and I've never heard that the final decoction would be 100% liquid. Braukaiser's URL just above is a good example of what I'm saying. Unless I missed something, I think he just says mostly grain.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Almost anything that talks about decoction.

Just for fun, let's google "Decoction Mash" and see what the first few hits say about the thickness of the 2nd & 3rd decoction ...

1) BYO Article. Says of the 2nd decoction: "Like the first decoction, this should be the thickest one-third of the mash." Nothing different for the 3rd decoction.

2) Braukaiser wiki or HBT article. Suggests decoctions #1 and #2 would be 1.0 to 1.25 qt/lb and the final decoction "can also be thinner." Sounds more like an option than a suggestion or directive. Regardless, "thinner" doesn't sound like 100% liquid.

And a couple books off my bookshelf:

3) Papazian, Homebrewers Companion. Says decoctions 1 & 2 should be the thickest part of the mash, no liquid, while #3 is 50:50 liquid to thick mash.

4) Miller, Homebrewing Guide. Says for the decoctions you should take only the thickest part of the mash, with just enough liquid to make it stirrable (p. 108).

Ok Denny, I've showed you mine, now show me yours.

 

[biertourist]

3rd decoction is liquid or at least very thin.

Braukaiser covers it as does "New Brewing Lager".

The reason is that if you pull grain for the third decoction there's a chance that you'll free more little bits of starch that have been hanging onto the grain husk but you'll be doing this at boiling temps so you won't have any enzyme left in your decocted portion; then even if you add the decoction back to the main batch with the traditional triple decoction schedule you're VERY quickly bringing the main mash up to mash out temps which kills the enzyme and means that that starch that you just added doesn't get converted.

There are some decoction schedules where your last decoction will still be thick grain, but the traditional triple decoction which finishes at mash out DOES use a liquid decoction as the final (third) decoction.


Adam

 

[biertourist]

Hmm....


http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/DecoctFAQ.html -This link seems to indicate that both with and without grain are traditional and that pulling a purely liquid portion to avoid adding starch was considered a workaround.

"Special care must be taken for mash-out (which is of course optional anyway): boiling the grains the last time may release some more starch that will not be converted because you've just wiped out the enzymes. The traditional work-around is: boil only the clear liquid for mash-out"

This 1995 BYO article calls for a liquid only mash-out 3rd step, too: http://byo.com/stories/item/1386-solve-the-mystery-of-decoction-mashing


Adam

 

[biertourist]

I'm almost afraid to quote it because of the myriad of errors but the Oxford Companion to Beer also quotes a liquid decoction as being traditional for the 3rd decoction:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gY... decoction schedule liquid decoction?&f=false

"In contrast to the procedure before, the third decoction step in the traditional triple decoction is the boiling of the liquid mash.

Adam

 

[DPBISME]

Thanks... I will be doing it again soon...

 

[VladOfTrub]

1) BYO Article. Says of the 2nd decoction: "Like the first decoction, this should be the thickest one-third of the mash." Nothing different for the 3rd decoction.

It is a mistake. However, German brewers aren't limited to a tri-decoction. They will use as many as five, depending on what they're brewing. The 3rd decoction can be thick if it isn't the final decoction.

2) Braukaiser wiki or HBT article. Suggests decoctions #1 and #2 would be 1.0 to 1.25 qt/lb and the final decoction "can also be thinner." Sounds more like an option than a suggestion or directive. Regardless, "thinner" doesn't sound like 100% liquid.

What the guy is trying to get across, is that it isn't out of the norm to thin down mash before pulling the final decoction. There are reasons to thin the mash before the last decoction. In the decoction method 1 qt/lb is the initial volume of water that will be used throughout the entire process. However, extra water is added into the decoction kettle to hasten conversions. If 1.25 to 1.5 qt/lb is the initial volume, the brewermaster will use some of the liquid in the tun to hasten conversion of the decoctions. The decoction method can use over 2 qt/lb by the end of the process, for temperature maintenance.

3) Papazian, Homebrewers Companion. Says decoctions 1 & 2 should be the thickest part of the mash, no liquid, while #3 is 50:50 liquid to thick mash.

His advice on decoction method is close to worthless.

4) Miller, Homebrewing Guide. Says for the decoctions you should take only the thickest part of the mash, with just enough liquid to make it stirrable (p. 108).

You didn't read the entire text, nor, do you completely understand the process....


When boiling the 1st and 2nd decoctions, the majority of starch that isn't ground fine enough, or that gets stuck in the husk will burst and go into solution. Starch will burst at approx. 166F. Ramping the decoction temp up to boiling, gelatinizes starch. Starch gelatinizes at 149F. Starch is of little concern during the final decoction. More starch in solution and gelatinized are part of the reasons why the OG of decoction method is higher than other brewing methods. More starch for enzymes to work with, more sugars produced. When the decoction process is done correctly. The only things in the grain bed will be mostly, husk, endosperm, with protein on top. Very little starch is left in the mash. Resulting in a cleaner product, with better stability and shelf life. Mash pH is to be considered. Therefore, only mash liquid and very little mash is pulled for the final decoction. If mash out temp isn't achieved, boiling water is infused. Mash out is only a rule of thumb. It isn't an umbrella, covering all types of beer being produced. Mash out can reduce quality in beer produced using English method. The process does little to break down hard starch. Starch will rupture, gelatinize, going into solution at mash out temps. Enzymes become denatured. The solubolized starch ends up down the line, along with insoluble, non-coagulable proteins, not reduced by the method. Doing a ten minute mash out, with a ten minute vorlauf increases the starch carried in the run off.

 

[DPBISME]

I don't do decoctions normally, but I've never heard this. Source?

I had not looked at this thread in a long time...

Here is a source:

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

EDIT: But maybe I should have looked at all the help you already got...

DPB