Beer not as caramelly as I would like

[carloslavin]

So, the title says it all. I've brewed several ambers and ESBs and while I feel they're quite drinkable, I don't get a ton of caramel from them. By a ton of caramel I'm comparing against, for example, Fuller's IPA or ESB which to me have a serious caramel nose and flavor on them.

As an example, this amber recipe below. Based on the layering of the caramels and the % I would expect a heavy caramel on it. Again, while drinkable, I just don't get that much caramel flavor like in the Fullers I mentioned.

For 5.5gal:
8# 12oz 2 row
1# Caramel 60
6oz Caramel 40
4oz Caramel 120
.4oz Warrior at 60min
1oz Willamette at 10min
1oz Willamette at flameout
1.054SG
1.012FG
21 IBUs
Mashed at 153F
US-05 yeast

Pretty confused about what I could be doing different or if anyone has had this sort of experience. I brew BIAB, mashing with half the water volume and sparging/rinsing with the other half, if that matters.

Appreciate any insights

 

[JimRausch]

I agree- it's seems like you're using plenty of caamel malt. So two possibilities:
1. Try using a different brand of malt
2. Use WY1450 Denny's favorite 50 yeast. To me that really brings out maltiness.

 

[ong]

Another thing to try — pull out a gallon of your first runnings (before sparge and before hop additions), and boil it down separately while you’re bringing the main body of wort to a boil. Once your gallon is almost syrupy in consistency, add it back to the beer. You’ll get lots of Maillard reactions in the wort you cooked down.

 

[jigtwins]

Us-05 may be part of the culprit. In my experience it dulls some aromas and flavors. maybe try using a english yeast.

 

[McKnuckle]

^totally agree. The Fuller’s yeast is WLP-002 / WY1968. Search the forum and read up on how to get the most out of it. Alternately, nearly any UK yeast will have more character than US-05. There are lots of good options.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

US-05 yeast

That's your first problem, it's no surprise you're missing sweet flavours like caramel when using a high-attenuation yeast like US-05, it's eating all the caramel! If you're using Fullers as your benchmark then use their yeast - 1968, WLP002 and equivalents. It's notorious for its low attenuation (but at least you won't need any other fining agents). If you're stuck with Fermentis dry yeasts then use S-04 or even S-33.

I'd also question your benchmarks a bit. Admittedly, I didn't even know Fuller's sold a beer called IPA (it's some kind of export-only variant of Bengal Lancer), but I'm not sure I'd go as far as "a ton of" caramel. There's a bit in there but excess caramel can mean insufficient conditioning of cask beer, or bottles that have been mistreated. I get far more caramel in Belgian tripels for instance.

 

[Murphys_Law]

1968 is a great yeast! That’s all I use in my ESB.

 

[dmtaylor]

You really must use English Crystal malt. USA versions are just not the same.

 

[carloslavin]

Alright, so it looks pretty unanimous that US-05 is likely to blame here. I'll try my next amber with S-04 (I have one already sitting on my fridge) and see if there's any improvement.

Next thing is that I'm also changing the malt next time I restock. I have a suspicion that my lhbs doesn't have super fresh grains, so I'll order online from one of the big guys to see if that achieves anything. Don't feel much of an issue on my ipas or blondes, but that could simply be because the malt presence on them is very subdued.

Something else I had thought could be an issue was my water chemistry, but I start with RO and build it up to the balanced or malty profiles in Bru N Water, which I assume should be enough.

I'll keep this thread updated with what happens . Thanks everyone

 

[EnglishAndy]

There's no need to layer the caramalts like that. I'm working my way through a simple bitter at the moment with just Maris Otter and 3% Crystal 240 EBC (about 90L) and it's caramel and toffee all the way. Our English crystal might be the reason, I haven't tried the American roasted malts. Yeast was WLP007.

 

[carloslavin]

There's no need to layer the caramalts like that. I'm working my way through a simple bitter at the moment with just Maris Otter and 3% Crystal 240 EBC (about 90L) and it's caramel and toffee all the way. Our English crystal might be the reason, I haven't tried the American roasted malts. Yeast was WLP007.

I like the "keep it simple, silly" approach. Will keep that in mind in future experimenting.

Looks like I'll have to up my beer intake to be able to test all these variables. For science

 

[SoCal-Doug]

The purists are going to flame me for this but oh well...

Try WY1084. It doesn't hurt the maltiness, but doesn't cover them up with other flavors. Pretty clean yeast. Not a big attenuator. Just don't tell anyone what yeast you used

 

[thehaze]

I can also pitch in and tell you that US-05 for malty/sweeter beers is a no go. I did some red ales in the past and used 05, and they over attenuated ( under 1.010 ) and there was no maltiness to speak of.

I then changed to S-04, I mash higher at around 154-155 F ( 68C with my Grainfather ) and use different Lovibond crystal malts ( no roasted malts for me ). I usually go for CaraAroma ( 150 L ), CaraMunich III, Abbey malt ( a sort of crystal that can be used up to 50% in the grist ) and some Special B/ W. Depending on how much I use of each, I get from bright Red to deep amber and they are malty.

The secret, at least for me, is using a few crystal varieties, both lowish L and high L. A crystal 60, 90 and 120-150 should do the trick.

Special B by the way adds a beautiful red colour and great complex maltiness.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Special B is pretty awesome (a dash in a Saison really kicks up the malt complexity). But be careful because different brands can be vastly different. I prefer Melanoidin for reds. The redness is more red (less brown) and gives great maltiness. I stay clear of heavily roasted anything for reds to avoid the burnt coffee result.

 

[carloslavin]

Special B is pretty awesome (a dash in a Saison really kicks up the malt complexity). But be careful because different brands can be vastly different. I prefer Melanoidin for reds. The redness is more red (less brown) and gives great maltiness. I stay clear of heavily roasted anything for reds to avoid the burnt coffee result.

A couple months ago I did Biermuncher's Oktoberfast recipe that is on the site, which has plenty Aromatic (subbed for Melanoidin) and is fermented with S-04. Loved the maltiness on it, and it's just now clicking that the yeast used might also have helped with that.

More points to quit on US-05 for this kind of beers

 

[jigtwins]

Special B is pretty awesome (a dash in a Saison really kicks up the malt complexity). But be careful because different brands can be vastly different. I prefer Melanoidin for reds. The redness is more red (less brown) and gives great maltiness. I stay clear of heavily roasted anything for reds to avoid the burnt coffee result.

I also like the melamoidin malt. But be very sparing with it. It is, in my opinion very sweet. Much like honey malt. I made the mistake of using it in a ipa. Did a 10 gallon batch and use about 5% of total grain bill and it was terrible. Way too sweet. I had read it was like a stronger version of Munich. But after doing more research I found out its more like honey malt. I drank 10 gallons of sweet ipa. A few of my friends liked it but the true ipa people were like Wtf? Cloying and strangely sweet.