BCS and fly sparging

[Thefatdoghead]

Im in the process of building a 30 gal 3v herms full electric brewery controlled by a bcs 462.

Im going to use DC ball valves but I cant find much info on how or if people fly sparge with the bcs?
Should I leave 2 manual ball valves for fly sparging or is there a way to get around this?
Thanks for any info in advance.

Gav

 

[mredge73]

I would just sparge manually in this case...
If you want to do it automatically you need some sort of feedback in place to tell the BCS when it is done, maybe a float or something.
If the DC ball valves are proportional you would want to use a flow meter ($$$$) to keep it at whatever flow rate you dial in and call it done once your flow rate drops to 0.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

One of the biggest limitations of the BCS controllers is the lack of analog inputs so a flow meter is very hard to make work. Brundog did something with an Arduino and a flow meter to control his sparge and then connected it to his BCS. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=542899. The 4th post goes into detail on the sparge control. He has since eliminated the BCS and gone to full Arduino control - read the whole thread for that.

I have a BCS 460 and I used to manually fly sparge but now just pump the entire sparge volume on top of the grain bed in the mash tun all at once. I don't recirculate at that point; just drain the tun slowly and the sparge water rinses the grain just like a normal fly sparge. I get the same mash efficiency as I did before (85%).

You could duplicate that with digital outputs connected to the pump and valves. Size of the mash tun becomes limiting at a certain point. For me that's about a maximum original gravity of 1.080 on a 5 gallon batch size (mash tun is 10 gallons).

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Great info, thanks.

One thing in pretty stuck on is being able to get crystal clear wort into the brew kettle.

Do you sacrifice that when you dump all your sparge water on your mash?

I'm just set on fly sparing. I've had a braumeister for years so I've never been able to have clear wort when starting boil.

Sounding like ill have to go manual for that part of the process.
I'll check out that link. Thanks

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Since I recirculate the mash through my RIMS heater before I add the sparge water, the wort is nice and clear when I transfer it over to the kettle.

My thinking on this is that the sparge water is lower density than the wort, so if I add it to the mash tun gently enough, it will stay on top of the heavier wort without mixing (kind of like a black and tan!). This makes it functionally the same as fly sparging; the only difference is that the sparge water is in the mash tun instead of the HLT.

 

[mredge73]

I batch sparge (add all water at once) and mix wildly with a mash paddle.
Then circulate wide open for 10 minutes to reset the grain bed; wort that goes into the kettle afterwards is crystal clear.
However my brew house efficiency is only about 73%.

 

[mredge73]

One of the biggest limitations of the BCS controllers is the lack of analog inputs so a flow meter is very hard to make work.

I forgot about this since I don't use any AI on my system outside of the Temperature input.

A paddle mounted flow switch (pretty cheap) would work on the discrete inputs. This will tell it when it is finished; you would need a manual gate valve to regulate the flow.

 

[BrunDog]

As much as I like fly sparging and have put in lots of work building an electronic way to do it, I think @Wizard_of_Frobozz is on to something... gently "placing" all the water above the mash should yield nearly the same effect as matched fly sparging. I have witnessed this during debugging where I accidentally added all the water without draining. The results were basically identical.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

A paddle mounted flow switch (pretty cheap) would work on the discrete inputs. This will tell it when it is finished; you would need a manual gate valve to regulate the flow.

Yes you absolutely can! I use one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Gems-Sensors-FS-380P-Polypropylene-Setting/dp/B008OM5TZW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1501513351&sr=8-3&keywords=gems+flow+switch+polypropylene My main purpose for installing the flow switch was to have an interlock with my RIMS heater - no power if there is no flow! It can also serve as an input that will be a BCS exit condition once the kettle is empty during my sparge transfer process step. That requires being very precise about volumes in the kettle and mash tun, so I usually just transfer manually, but it can be done!

As much as I like fly sparging and have put in lots of work building an electronic way to do it, I think @Wizard_of_Frobozz is on to something... gently "placing" all the water above the mash should yield nearly the same effect as matched fly sparging. I have witnessed this during debugging where I accidentally added all the water without draining. The results were basically identical.

Thanks for the kind words Brundog! I can say it's been working well for me - batch sparging simplicity with the efficiency of fly sparging.

 

[augiedoggy]

As much as I like fly sparging and have put in lots of work building an electronic way to do it, I think @Wizard_of_Frobozz is on to something... gently "placing" all the water above the mash should yield nearly the same effect as matched fly sparging. I have witnessed this during debugging where I accidentally added all the water without draining. The results were basically identical.

Same results here. Ill add that my thought was if the flow is nice and slow it will prevent any channeling and drain nice and even

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes you absolutely can! I use one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Gems-Sensors-FS-380P-Polypropylene-Setting/dp/B008OM5TZW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1501513351&sr=8-3&keywords=gems+flow+switch+polypropylene My main purpose for installing the flow switch was to have an interlock with my RIMS heater - no power if there is no flow! It can also serve as an input that will be a BCS exit condition once the kettle is empty during my sparge transfer process step. That requires being very precise about volumes in the kettle and mash tun, so I usually just transfer manually, but it can be done!



Thanks for the kind words Brundog! I can say it's been working well for me - batch sparging simplicity with the efficiency of fly sparging.

I use one of these myself although I did modify the "float" and the spring to allow more flow.... its saved me many times.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/304-stainle...hash=item361d157aeb:m:mhJ-6-2bB95lGW8M8j1XsBQ

 

[smcinco]

How about a float switch in the mash tun 1" above the grain bed to control flow and also one in the hlt at a pre-measured depth under the surface for final volume control? I'm currently working this functionality into my bcs-462 controlled system.

I'm not a huge fan of the MoreBeer systems but I did like their sparge management (the 2nd float switch above was not part of their system).

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

How about a float switch in the mash tun 1" above the grain bed to control flow and also one in the hlt at a pre-measured depth under the surface for final volume control? I'm currently working this functionality into my bcs-462 controlled system.



I'm not a huge fan of the MoreBeer systems but I did like their sparge management (the 2nd float switch above was not part of their system).

That should work; you'd need to set up the process step for filling the mash tun with a timer that sets an exit condition since you wouldn't have a 2nd float switch inside the mash tun to tell it when to shut off. Or you could do the reverse - set a timer to count once the float switch is made and stop filling while the timer runs. Either way would work but you'd have to make sure the timer is set up so you can't overfill the mash tun - that will take a few experiments I would think

 

[smcinco]

That should work; you'd need to set up the process step for filling the mash tun with a timer that sets an exit condition since you wouldn't have a 2nd float switch inside the mash tun to tell it when to shut off. Or you could do the reverse - set a timer to count once the float switch is made and stop filling while the timer runs. Either way would work but you'd have to make sure the timer is set up so you can't overfill the mash tun - that will take a few experiments I would think

Sorry was typing on my phone and may have been vague in my prior post.

The float switch in the MT shuts the pump off when the water level trips it (and back on as the the wort drains down). This also works for the vorlauf. The float switch is connected to my sparge arm and it is adjustable up/down with a set screw (see pics below). A simpler way to get the correct level might be to attach the float above a footing made of false bottom material to rest the float switch on top of the grain bed.

The switch in the HLT shuts off the sparge process when that switch is tripped. To get the exact sparge volume, measure the distance from the water surface to the float switch (again adjustable on a bracket and hanging on ½" ss tube or whatever else one can easily adjust up/down). I'm not a big fan of timers with the variability/reliability of these pumps.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Sorry was typing on my phone and may have been vague in my prior post.



The float switch in the MT shuts the pump off when the water level trips it (and back on as the the wort drains down). This also works for the vorlauf. The float switch is connected to my sparge arm and it is adjustable up/down with a set screw (see pics below). A simpler way to get the correct level might be to attach the float above a footing made of false bottom material to rest the float switch on top of the grain bed.



The switch in the HLT shuts off the sparge process when that switch is tripped. To get the exact sparge volume, measure the distance from the water surface to the float switch (again adjustable on a bracket and hanging on ½" ss tube or whatever else one can easily adjust up/down). I'm not a big fan of timers with the variability/reliability of these pumps.

Makes sense as long as the "deadband" on the float switch is long enough that the system won't rapidly try to turn on and off the spare flow. My suggestion of a timer was to prevent rapid cycling like that.

 

[smcinco]

Makes sense as long as the "deadband" on the float switch is long enough that the system won't rapidly try to turn on and off the spare flow. My suggestion of a timer was to prevent rapid cycling like that.

It's a function of how fast the MT is draining. If it's a proper ~1hr sparge the delay should be pretty long but it could also be programmed in theory I guess.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry was typing on my phone and may have been vague in my prior post.

The float switch in the MT shuts the pump off when the water level trips it (and back on as the the wort drains down). This also works for the vorlauf. The float switch is connected to my sparge arm and it is adjustable up/down with a set screw (see pics below). A simpler way to get the correct level might be to attach the float above a footing made of false bottom material to rest the float switch on top of the grain bed.

The switch in the HLT shuts off the sparge process when that switch is tripped. To get the exact sparge volume, measure the distance from the water surface to the float switch (again adjustable on a bracket and hanging on ½" ss tube or whatever else one can easily adjust up/down). I'm not a big fan of timers with the variability/reliability of these pumps.

I actually did this as well with my old lok line sparge arm. However the float switch with stick every once in awhile which caused the mash tun to just flood all at once so I removed it for reliability issues . I had the pumps directly wired into the float switch since they were DC pumps that only Drew less than an amp

 

[smcinco]

I actually did this as well with my old lok line sparge arm. However the float switch with stick every once in awhile which caused the mash tun to just flood all at once so I removed it for reliability issues . I had the pumps directly wired into the float switch since they were DC pumps that only Drew less than an amp

I can see it happening with a plastic float but with the stainless float switches I've never experienced that.

 

[augiedoggy]

I can see it happening with a plastic float but with the stainless float switches I've never experienced that.

well both mine were stainless.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

I see. The issue is that my 30 gallon mash tun will be full for full volume higher gravity beers.
Most likely making this process redundant.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

So it looks like it's going to be quiet difficult to accomplish a full auto system.
I don't mind going manual for fly sparging. As long as my volumes/gravs are spot on its all good.
Will it even be worth while using dc valves? Why do people use them In this case? Just to mash or?

 

[TexasWine]

So it looks like it's going to be quiet difficult to accomplish a full auto system.
I don't mind going manual for fly sparging. As long as my volumes/gravs are spot on its all good.

Do you have to sparge?

 

[BrunDog]

Before using volume measurement (via hydrostatic pressure sensors), my electronic autosparge was done via a capacitive sensor on the sight glass. I know most MT's don't have sight glasses, but I found it to be very helpful for filling and to keep an eye on an impending stuck sparge. These work well and can be positioned on the fly without getting dirty. It would even trigger an alarm during mashing if it turned off, notifying me of a sticking sparge.

See here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7223704&postcount=30

I actually have two of these sensors available. I am happy to sell them to someone for low cost if interested.