BCS-460 Beta Test

[BrewBeemer]

Thanks for the photo that clears up my idea about NOT removing the cable to the probe besides the RTD idea.
In the probe lead is that a two conductor with a grounding shield wrapped around the outside of the conductors and if so is it grounded at the 460 unit?
I'm thinking for my use to cut the probe cable close to the probe then using Radio Control model gold plated connectors in the right conductor count allowing for simple removal of the keggles for transporting, storage or cleaning of the brewing system. Silicone seal the cable entering the probe as well the cable cover, grounding shield and wires inside at the cut end behind the connector making for a waterproof probe as well.

 

[slnies]

Thanks for the photo that clears up my idea about NOT removing the cable to the probe besides the RTD idea.
In the probe lead is that a two conductor with a grounding shield wrapped around the outside of the conductors and if so is it grounded at the 460 unit?
I'm thinking for my use to cut the probe cable close to the probe then using Radio Control model gold plated connectors in the right conductor count allowing for simple removal of the keggles for transporting, storage or cleaning of the brewing system. Silicone seal the cable entering the probe as well the cable cover, grounding shield and wires inside at the cut end behind the connector making for a waterproof probe as well.

No, the wire is fairly standard two wire with no shielding. It is not required anyway, as the Mash tun is grounded. However to answer your next question, a much simpler and cheaper way to get portable with the probe would be to get yourself a set of bayonet type connecters, they have been used in the industry for years. I know they are old tech, but they must work, because even Fluke still uses them for their temp sensor hook ups on their high end testing equipment . Anyway just a suggestion. S.

 

[BrewBeemer]

No, the wire is fairly standard two wire with no shielding. It is not required anyway, as the Mash tun is grounded. However to answer your next question, a much simpler and cheaper way to get portable with the probe would be to get yourself a set of bayonet type connecters, they have been used in the industry for years. I know they are old tech, but they must work, because even Fluke still uses them for their temp sensor hook ups on their high end testing equipment . Anyway just a suggestion. S.

You must be talking about banana plug connections where the male end has four slits for a spring loaded tight fit in the socket. I have those for my Fluke 87 but would not want the male end with that hollow connector end getting wet from washing the kettles. For the small size I still believe those RC connectors with gold contacts would make a cleaner looking connection plus no corrosion and false resistance readings changing the siginal to the 460 Beta controller. There may be more connectors available on the market, I just haven't looked for them yet. All good ideas.

 

[BrewBeemer]

After having a couple of PM's always with quick replies and right to the point of my questions by Adam i've come to the decision in the near future to purchase a 460 Beta unit. His answers were none of those beating around the bush type many manufactures reply with about their products. For now i'll just have to be jealous of the new 460 Beta owners. My aggressive or abrassive questions towards the product were always answered in a gentlemanly like manner by Adam, hats off to you sir.
I'll start increasing my bier brewing money pot collection as a 460 purchase will be in my future. Thanks Adam and the 460 tesrers for all your answers and putting up with me and my BS questions at times.
NUFF SAID............Carl...............

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

I got mine, just started programming it. Slowly figuring things out. Next I need to rig some weldless fittings to install the probes. My programming thus far is simple, since I just have two pumps and do HERMS. Heat strike is manual, dough in, drop IC into HLT, turn pump on and off to maintain mash temp. Next I need to get Asco solenoid valves, pilot valves and pilot burners to turn my burners on and off! Then I can get 3 or 4 way solenoid valves and route liquid where I want it with float valves, etc. I can see how this may never end..

 

[slnies]

Welcome to the club p4ck37p1mp! The BCS-460 will make upgrading your system a ongoing and enjoyable process. Also easy. S.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I'm on the waiting list no worries in delivery time as the back's the main problem preventing the building of the new brew system for a while. Anyone have an idea for a liquid level control for the MLT without using any mechanical unit or float system? Any way to use a two conductor probe type of unit to maintain the MLT liquid level that can be connected to the 460 unit to control a pump? My thinking the probe unit must need some electronic unit with it for the proper signal that the 460 unit can use within the 5-20 ma signal load. A two conductor probe on a tube with a wing nut and stud adjustable on a stainless rod. Set it for different brew volumes and grain amount levels plus how much liquid maintained above the mash. Just thinking of another addition for a automated system. Any ideas out there?

 

[slimer]

I've seen some out there, but I forget where. One setup had to nodes, one on, one off. It was pretty slick. There's also the switches at McMaster-Carr. Search for Liquid Level Switches.

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

I was planning on using float switches for my fly sparge. Not sure how they'd need to be wired to the inputs on the bcs yet.

 

[eccsynd]

Float switches are probably the most economical. And easy to interface to the BCS-460 - connect one wire to +5V, and the other to a Din. So if Din=On, the switch is closed, Off = open.

Another option that I just ran across on the web:
Check these out:

http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.cfm/ci_id/140802/la_id/1/document/1/re_id/0

These sensors look very cool, and easy to interface to the BCS. But they're a little pricey. They work by using an internal LED, and when the no liquid is present all of the light is reflected back. When liquid covers the dome, some light escapes, and the sensor sends a 5V on/off back to the controller. I wonder what it does in the presence of foam (or splashes). Anyone use anything like this before?

 

[caskconditioned]

Float switches are probably the most economical. And easy to interface to the BCS-460 - connect one wire to +5V, and the other to a Din. So if Din=On, the switch is closed, Off = open.

Another option that I just ran across on the web:
Check these out:

http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.cfm/ci_id/140802/la_id/1/document/1/re_id/0

These sensors look very cool, and easy to interface to the BCS. But they're a little pricey. They work by using an internal LED, and when the no liquid is present all of the light is reflected back. When liquid covers the dome, some light escapes, and the sensor sends a 5V on/off back to the controller. I wonder what it does in the presence of foam (or splashes). Anyone use anything like this before?

Any idea how much they cost?

 

[eccsynd]

I've seen some styles as cheap as $32, but the high temp plastic ones are $47.
Digi-Key - 480-2028-ND (Honeywell Sensing and Control - LLE103101)

If you want to go stainless (like the pic) its $145.
HONEYWELL LLE305100 | Buy LLE305100 | Onlinecomponents.com

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

How high temp is that plastic one? I didn't see anything on that page as to max temp. I like the idea of that better than a float switch, and that price is not much more than a good float switch. Also, how are you guys dealing with your SSRs and power outlets in terms of water proofing? I looked at some outdoor NEMA enclosures to house the SSRs and the BCS itself. Not sure how I want to do my power outlets, other than using GFI. I may cut the plugs off the pumps and just hard wire them to the SSRs. BCS may live where my network gear goes and I'll run some cat5 to carry probe and other connections. Anyone have any thoughts or advice?

 

[bakins]

Also, how are you guys dealing with your SSRs and power outlets in terms of water proofing? I looked at some outdoor NEMA enclosures to house the SSRs and the BCS itself.

not a bcs user, yet, but I just used these on my electric rig:

From my old setup:

BCS may live where my network gear goes and I'll run some cat5 to carry probe and other connections.

I like that idea... not sure how distance affects probes, though.

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

Another question. Do I need to insulate probe wires, sensor wires, etc somehow with shrinkwrap tubing to protect them from heat and water?

 

[slimer]

I just ordered mine last night. Still sorting out my part list of what I need.

 

[caskconditioned]

How high temp is that plastic one? I didn't see anything on that page as to max temp. I like the idea of that better than a float switch, and that price is not much more than a good float switch. Also, how are you guys dealing with your SSRs and power outlets in terms of water proofing? I looked at some outdoor NEMA enclosures to house the SSRs and the BCS itself. Not sure how I want to do my power outlets, other than using GFI. I may cut the plugs off the pumps and just hard wire them to the SSRs. BCS may live where my network gear goes and I'll run some cat5 to carry probe and other connections. Anyone have any thoughts or advice?

I also like the idea of the plastic sensor. But on the page is says it contains lead? I don't know if that's something to be concerned about or not (will it leach into the mash?).

I do the same as bakins on my current control box. The vent on the right is directly over a heat sink for an SSR.

When I upgrade to a full electric system + BCS I'm planning on using a couple larger boxes. One for the BCS. I was thinking of maybe using a cover like the one above but instead of using it for electrical receptacles I would find some sort of plugs so that I could unplug/plug-in all the sensors (temp, din, cat5, etc) while keeping the plugs water resistant. Not sure what will work at this point. The other box will hold the SSRs, Heat Sinks etc. On my brew stand the pump, HERMS heater, etc. are screwed on or attached somehow so I will hard-wire those into the box (vs. using electrical receptacles) but other stuff that I needs to be unplugged often (electrical motor for stirrer on HLT) I will use a receptacle.

As a side note, I found a guy on eBay selling NEMA/metal boxes as well as switches, breakers, etc. Worth a look. Link (no affiliation, etc) He pretty much has every size NEMA you could think of.

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

I decided to get an outdoor NEMA box for the SSRs, and to hard wire the pumps to the SSRs. I got a 20A GFI breaker for my panel just for this box that will be hardwired to the breaker. I'll mount the box to the wall in the garage, the cords on the pumps are long enough. Once I have a stand I'll re-do things some as I'll have more SSRs and other things.

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

Drat, just noticed they sent me 240vac SSRs instead of 120vac. I assume this won't work? Maybe it will, if its rated for 240v it should do 120v I guess.

 

[eccsynd]

How high temp is that plastic one?

The datasheet says the high temp ones are good up to 257degF. It doesn't say what type of material, only Plastic. But under typical applications, it lists Food and Beverage, and Medical.

Digikey says it's not RoHS compliant, but that doesn't mean that there is lead in it, or if there is some, its probably not in the part touching the wort. I'm just speculating, only the manufacturer would know for sure, but it seems pretty safe to me.

p4ck37p1mp, I wouldn't cut the end off your pump. Just install a cheap outlet from your ssr inside your enclosure. You'll find that there may be something different in the future that you might want to control, so that gives you good flexibility. Remember, you can program the BCS-460 for your brewrig, and save the configuration to a file. After brewday, load up a different configuration file and use it for something else.

 

[eccsynd]

Drat, just noticed they sent me 240vac SSRs instead of 120vac. I assume this won't work? Maybe it will, if its rated for 240v it should do 120v I guess.

Those are fine. 240 is a maximum.

 

[caskconditioned]

Maybe a little off topic here...

Are the temp. sensors sensitive to electrical charges? I mean the actual wire. Ex. if I were to mount all my boxes on a wall and then bundle all the wires (240V,120V,sensor wire, etc) and run it to my brew stand would the pose a problem? Or is it better to keep the BCS + sensor wires as far away from the electrical wires as possible? If the latter is true, then it will be easier for me to mount all the boxes on the stand and keep the "sensitive" components away from the electrical stuff.

 

[eccsynd]

The probes have a 6' plenum rated cable. The probe operating temperature is from -40 to 250°F

To read the temperature of the thermistor, the BCS-460 simply applies a voltage to determine the resistance of the probe. These are measured at a relatively large voltage compared to other probe designs, so it is not very sensitive to noise.

The reading of the probe at 25°C is 10,000ohms, so adding wire at 0.025 ohms/foot (24 gauge) won't put a dent in the accuracy. And, for extremely long runs, just recalibrate the probe to account for the extra resistance.

Personally, my probe wires run (in a haphazard mess) entangled with my high voltage cords, and I don't see any interference. But I know one user extended the probe wire for a long run, and also ran it through the compressor of a Snapple fridge, and saw some noise when the compressor kicked on. I've suggested using a shielded wire to clean it up, but he didn't think it was worth the trouble since the variation was small.
Embedded Control Concepts Forum • View topic - General Questions - Brew System

So is it better to keep them separated? Of course.
Is it required? Probably not.

 

[slimer]

Here's a tentative plan of how I'm going to set up mine when it arrives. I may have to do it in stages.

 

[slimer]

Whoops, that pic has some mistakes, I'll post a new one with adjustments in a little while.

 

[slimer]

Updated. This version is a little cleaner. The orange dash lines is CAT5 cable or Twisted pair and the black dashed lines are the power sources for the constant on.

 

[caskconditioned]

Thanks for the schematic slimer. Are you brewing 5 or 10 gallon batches? My design is similar with a few exceptions...

I'm going to use a 4500W 240V element in the HLT. I do 10g batches so I need more "juice" to get my sparge water to temp in time. I'd rather it be at temp before my mash is finished than wasting time waiting for it.

For the pump and 120V stuff, I was planning on using 25A SSRs - any reason to use 40A? I realize that they will be more efficient and throw less heat, but maybe I'm missing something and should use 40A relays instead?

Instead of a power dist. block - I'm planning on using a sub-panel with x2 30A breakers (for HLT/Kettle) and x2 15A breakers (HERMS, 120v service). I'm copying a design I found on another board.

Keep us updated (I'm about 3 weeks from starting as I have a crazy work schedule until then).

 

[slimer]

I do 5.5 to 11 gallon batches depending on how much I plan to bottle/keg/etc.

Well, I'm planning on heating the sparge water at the same time as the strike water. That way, everything will be copacetic when it's all said and done.

I guess the pumps could run off 25A SSR's because the have such minimal draw, this was a first draft. I would definitely go with 40A SSR's for everything else for the durability factor.

I think coming from the automotive world has led me to the power distribution block versus the breakers. It's just my preference and I think it will allow for more flexibility.

So your is a HERMS, mine's a RIMS, I would like to see your process. I'm currently in the equipment gathering stage. It's a slow process because of the monthly budget and limited availability. I hope to be done around April or May.

 

[slnies]

Nice set up slimer. I look forward to seeing some pics of the project, when it is finished. S.

 

[np0x]

But I know one user extended the probe wire for a long run, and also ran it through the compressor of a Snapple fridge

that would be me, when the compressor was on, the normal variances of the temperature probe seemed to increase to around 1-1.5 degree F instead of the normal rock solid 0.2 variations I see when they are immersed in liquid. I have some shielded wire I want to try, but it has been so cold here the compressor has been off(and honestly i am marginally ok with the variations as my differential on my fridge setup is 6F as I am measuring air temp not liquid.)

When I get around to wiring them up with the shielded wire I will report back.