Batch Sparge Question

[collarcitybrew]

I just did my first AG brew this weekend and it went well. But I do have a question. I put the recipe in BeerSmith and it said I'd need about 8 gals of water to reach my Pre-Boil volume of 6 gals, 4.25 in the mash and about 3.8 for the sparge. I ended up with about 1.25 gals of wort in the mash tun after I collected my 6 gals. My pre-boil gravity was about 10 points low and I think I got very poor efficiency. I hit all the numbers for temp that BeerSmith gave me. I've also gone back and used different calculators and it looks like I had the right amount of water. What happened?

I'm sure this is just a noobe thing that happens but I'd like to nip it in the butt!

11 lbs of Grain
Mash temp 155
Sparge water temp 168.

Thanks All!

 

[kev211]

I just plugged you numbers into brew365 and got the same thing. Right around 8 gallons needed. What was your mash thickness? And what is your boil off rate? Thats a big thing. If you were aiming for 5.5 gals post boil (Im assuming you were) 6 gallons would not be enough wort for your boil off. To get to 5.5 gals post boil I usually shoot for 7-7.5 gals pre boil which could explain that 1.25 left in your mash tun

 

[jbaysurfer]

Without adding the numbers into a program, I can tell you that if you got 1.25G of wort left over in your mash tun, and you were 10 pts short, it's likely your efficiency was right on....and assuming Kev is correct (he put it into a program to calculate volumes) it's your measurements that were off. There was lots of sugar left in that 1.25G of wort, and efficiency is measured by both the volume of wort produced, and it's sugar content.

 

[collarcitybrew]

The mash was not very thick after the hour. I loose about .75 gals in boil off and then about .5 to trub/ hop, give or take a quarter gal. It looks like I put about 4.5 gals in primary. I only have a 7 gal boil kettle so I have to keep the batch size a little small. My gravity of the second runnings were 1.024. Thanks for the responses guys!

 

[jbaysurfer]

How was your OG? Also 10 pts off?

 

[Clonefan94]

I had this same issue early on and had to adjust my deadspace numbers. I put mine down to a quart in the mash tun and a quart in my kettle (I just dump post cooling right into the bucket). This got me down to just a trickle at the end of my running a after the batch sparge. I went from about 65% efficiency to now at 78%.

I just figured after all was said and done I wasn't accounting for the grain that actually takes up deadspace and is able to displace more water during the sparge.

In the end, it's about knowing your system. Next time just plan a gallon less water and see if that works better. The first couple of times, I did have extra sparge water ready just in case, but never did use it. It just seems, no matter what you calculations say, you have to get to know your system because each one works a little different.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[kev211]

You put 4.5 into the carboy, but what did you plug into the calculator? I just re-checked the numbers Assuming .5 gal for trub loss and .5 gal for equipment loss with a .75 boil off rate and a thicker mash of 1.25qt/lb and Im still getting that you needed 7.72 gallons total needed. Are you sure you had 11 lbs of grains? And did you drain the rest of the leftover wort that you didnt use to see if it actually was over 1 gal? Something just isnt adding up

 

[billym99]

Few questions:

1. Are you sure you had 6 gallons in your boil pot after the sparge?
2. In Beersmith, what do you have set for Lauter Tun dead space (Equipment Profile).
3. In Beersmith, what do you have set for trub loss (Equipment Profile)?
4. In Beersmith, did you modify the grain absorption rate (Options>Advanced)?
5. In your recipe, are you letting beersmith calculate boil volume (check box near the top) or are you manually setting it? Sounds like your setting this yourself.

 

[collarcitybrew]

How was your OG? Also 10 pts off?

My OG was 1.050 supposed to be 1.057 so it was about 7 off.

 

[collarcitybrew]

I had this same issue early on and had to adjust my deadspace numbers. I put mine down to a quart in the mash tun and a quart in my kettle (I just dump post cooling right into the bucket). This got me down to just a trickle at the end of my running a after the batch sparge. I went from about 65% efficiency to now at 78%.

I just figured after all was said and done I wasn't accounting for the grain that actually takes up deadspace and is able to displace more water during the sparge.

In the end, it's about knowing your system. Next time just plan a gallon less water and see if that works better. The first couple of times, I did have extra sparge water ready just in case, but never did use it. It just seems, no matter what you calculations say, you have to get to know your system because each one works a little different.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Thanks! I figured it's just noobe crap! Thanks for the response.

 

[collarcitybrew]

You put 4.5 into the carboy, but what did you plug into the calculator? I just re-checked the numbers Assuming .5 gal for trub loss and .5 gal for equipment loss with a .75 boil off rate and a thicker mash of 1.25qt/lb and Im still getting that you needed 7.72 gallons total needed. Are you sure you had 11 lbs of grains? And did you drain the rest of the leftover wort that you didnt use to see if it actually was over 1 gal? Something just isnt adding up

I didn't plug that all in. This was my first brew with a couple new pieces of equipment. #1 10 gal Home Depot cooler and I added a valve and a screen to my boil kettle so I did this brew without a hop bag. I didn't measure what I ended up dumping it just seemed like a lot. (After the fact I said to myself I should have measured that)

 

[collarcitybrew]

Few questions:

1. Are you sure you had 6 gallons in your boil pot after the sparge?
2. In Beersmith, what do you have set for Lauter Tun dead space (Equipment Profile).
3. In Beersmith, what do you have set for trub loss (Equipment Profile)?
4. In Beersmith, did you modify the grain absorption rate (Options>Advanced)?
5. In your recipe, are you letting beersmith calculate boil volume (check box near the top) or are you manually setting it? Sounds like your setting this yourself.

1. Are you sure you had 6 gallons in your boil pot after the sparge? Yes I have my kettle marked with gallon lines (7 gal pot)
2. In Beersmith, what do you have set for Lauter Tun dead space (Equipment Profile). Dead space is set for about 2/3 gallon 0.625. I put water in the Tauter tun drained off till it wouldn't drain anymore then took a measurement of the water left behind.
3. In Beersmith, what do you have set for trub loss (Equipment Profile)? I think I have either .5 or .75 set, sorry I'm at work.
4. In Beersmith, did you modify the grain absorption rate (Options>Advanced)?No
5. In your recipe, are you letting beersmith calculate boil volume (check box near the top) or are you manually setting it? Sounds like your setting this yourself.Myself. Beer smith wanted me to boil like 7+ gallons but that isn't possible for my kettel

Thanks!!

 

[kev211]

I didn't plug that all in. This was my first brew with a couple new pieces of equipment. #1 10 gal Home Depot cooler and I added a valve and a screen to my boil kettle so I did this brew without a hop bag. I didn't measure what I ended up dumping it just seemed like a lot. (After the fact I said to myself I should have measured that)

Ha! It happens, and as time goes on you'll get more and more right. And, you'll start to take notes on how all of your equipment works/flaws/etc. Overall, I think you'll be alright

 

[kev211]

what grains did you use/recipe??

 

[jbaysurfer]

Seems like only grain absorption rate can account for this. Is this extra 1.25G taken from the mash tun after a good period of time into the boil? Wort settles out of the grain bed after you're done sparging for a good 45+ minutes afterwards. If you let your mash tun sit for most of your boil before cleaning, you can get a lot more wort to come out of the grainbed.

If this is the case, you need either a better crush, to make sure your PH is right, or both. Ultimately you could manually adjust grain absorption rate in the software, but that's a step I've never taken, as I feel like absorption rate is universal (for barley anyway).

Ultimately I'd start fine tuning dead tun space, and my brewhouse efficiency in the software until it all came out right. I agree with the sentiment above, no matter what system it takes some experience to dial it in. I think my 3 vessel AG setup took me 8 batches to figure out, and it's still a bit of artwork when I'm using larger then normal grainbills (lower efficiency) or double crushing...etc....

 

[feinbera]

Who are you gonna believe, your mash calculator or your lying eyes?

Seriously, the calculator's a good starting point, but don't take it as gospel. Make an extra gallon of sparge water, it's cheap and easy. Measure your first runnings, and only add as much sparge water as you still need to hit your pre-boil volume – whether it's grain absorption or dead space, whatever you're gonna "lose" will already be lost in the mash, so you should get out the same amount you put in for each batch sparge.

You could also consider splitting your sparge into two batches; you'll only be pulling about 1.015 in the second batch, so, if you leave half a gallon in the tun, you're still not losing too many sugars.

 

[collarcitybrew]

what grains did you use/recipe??

It was a Pale Ale:
9 lb of 2 - American row
1 lb Caripils
1 lb Crystal 40L

 

[collarcitybrew]

Thanks everybody! I'm glad that this is a pretty normal thing to go through and that I just have to walk through the trenches a little to get this dialed in. I jumped in to AG after 3 batches of Extract and a HD gift card for Christmas. So far I love this hobby and all the people I've met and interacted with!

 

[kev211]

Thanks everybody! I'm glad that this is a pretty normal thing to go through and that I just have to walk through the trenches a little to get this dialed in. I jumped in to AG after 3 batches of Extract and a HD gift card for Christmas. So far I love this hobby and all the people I've met and interacted with!

Totally normal. And even once you get them dialed, you'll still make mistakes from time to time. I did a mash the other day that was a few points low because I made the mistake/brain fart of looking at the Celsius portion of my thermometer and not Fahrenheit. Needless to say, my mash did not extract all the sugars I needed