Batch Sparge question

[winvarin]

I have been exploring this technique for several batches now. I am brewing again over the weekend and had a question.

But first, here is what I do now. In most cases, I have been following the advice of doing 2 batches. More precisely, I do a mashout and 2 batches. I add about 2 gallons at the end of the mash (close to boiling) in order to try to raise the grain bed temp. Mixed results on that, but that's a whole different story.

Then I figure out how much more I need to collect and divide in half. There is where my 2 batches then come from. If after collecting my mash water + mashout water, I still need 4 gallons to hit my pre-boil volume, then I do two batches of 2 gallons each to collect my pre-boil run off.

However, tomorrow, I am brewing with a small enough grain volume that I should be able to fit everything (mash, mashout and sparge water) in my MLT all at once. I know what my grain absorption rate is so I should be able to calculate exactly how much water that needs to go in for a single shot.

What I am considering doing is, at the end of the mash, making a single addition of water in the 180F-185F range that will constitute my mashout and total sparge additions. If I have run the numbers correctly, I should be able to pull my entire boil volume in a single run off. (add once, stir once, set grain bed once, and sparge once)

Does anybody see an issue with this method? If I overshoot (or undershoot), it should only be by a small amount and I should be able to account for it in the boil.

My main concern is whether there is a problem with batch sparging and only pulling one running. There is really no reason why I am wanting to do this, other than to knock a little bit of time off my brew day.

 

[Hammy71]

Some people do this on every brew. Not sure what your efficiency will be with no sparge though....

 

[winvarin]

That may be a reason not to do it. I typically run in the upper 60s when doing my other method

 

[winvarin]

What would cause the difference in only doing it once? I would use the same amount of water regardless. Is it because I am only stirring the water in the one time?

 

[Northcalais40]

You are starting with a mixture of sugary grain: a high concentration. You want to get as much sugar out as you can. The most efficient way is to drain the grain fully (as little water left as possible) then add water and stir like a madman or madwoman. The sugar left in the grain gets diluted by the sparge water and you run off a lower concentration wort. An additional sparge dilutes it still more. But you have diminishing returns.

Braukaiser.com has great information about all the different ways to batch sparge.

The bottom line, for me, is that you get a procedure down and stick with it. It will give you a specific efficiency that you figure your recipes with accurately.

My advice is skip the mash out, add water that is a bit hotter to get the first sparge up to 170F. Do one batch sparge for simplicity, or two for better efficiency. And leave it at that.

You'll find many batch sparging tutorials here and elsewhere, like Dennybrew.com.

 

[LVBen]

Winvarin, the water needs time to absorb the sugar. Stirring helps the water get to sugar it might not have access to, but it still needs time. Your method will work fine, but I'd let it sit for about 15 minutes after adding the water before starting the lautering.

 

[camus]

+1 LVben's advice and Northcalais40

If you have the room just do a single sparge, forget the mashout, add the sparge water and stir.

I would definitely drain before doing so though.

 

[winvarin]

So it sounds like a modified version of my usual process may be in order:
1. Mash
2. Drain
3. Add all my sparge water in a single addition
4. Stir like there's no tomorrow
5. vorlauf to set the grain bed
6. Drain and boil

All I'd be skipping is the second sparge addition. I am also trying to do this in order to get the kettle on the fire as quickly as possible. My mashout step in the past has not put the grainbed as high as I want and I feel I may be leaving the grainbed (and the rinsed wort) at conversion temperatures. I have had some issues with body, regardless of mash temperature. My speculation is that I am getting more conversion than I want and am increasing attenuation and decreasing body.

Logistically, my setup does not allow me to get my pot right on the heat while I am still sparging.

 

[Northcalais40]

What many people do for their mashout is add their sparge water at a high temp that brings the grain up to 170F. Your first run off is in the BK already so you can start heating that while you stir the sparge. The subsequent vorlauf and drain should take like 5-10 min. if you use gravity.

Batch sparging allows quick as possible draining, so you can achieve mash out temps in the BK within 15-20 minutes depending on your burner's output.

For what it's worth, I do a decoction mash out, which adds no water to the mash.

 

[RedHouse]

I add my total sparge volume, stir like crazy for a few minutes, close the lid and wait ten minutes. I then vourlauf and drain the wort. I have been getting between 77-82% efficiency with this method.

Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk

 

[pkeeler]

Winvarin, the water needs time to absorb the sugar. Stirring helps the water get to sugar it might not have access to, but it still needs time. Your method will work fine, but I'd let it sit for about 15 minutes after adding the water before starting the lautering.

All the sugar is already available, that is called mashing. When you are sparging, you are just rinsing. Waiting 15 min. won't do anything to create more sugar. If you look at Dennybrew's method or anyone out there, nobody suggests waiting after adding the sparge water. I don't know why so many on here do it.

4. Stir like there's no tomorrow

This is a mistake. Just give it a gentle but thorough stir. Again, you are rinsing, not mashing.

 

[LVBen]

All the sugar is already available, that is called mashing. When you are sparging, you are just rinsing. Waiting 15 min. won't do anything to create more sugar. If you look at Dennybrew's method or anyone out there, nobody suggests waiting after adding the sparge water. I don't know why so many on here do it.

There is very little water flow in a bed of grains. You need to stir in order for the water to make contact with all of the grain. If you don't stir, lots of sugar will be stuck inside of the bed of grains.

 

[Kaiser]

What you are trying to do is generally referred to as no-sparge. Northcalais40, thanks or the braukaiser.com plug. Besides an article about batch sparging there is now also a spreadsheet that allows you to simulate batch sparge and party-gyle scenarios. I went ahead and uploaded 2 examples to Google Docs. These examples assume that you have 8lb of grain and want to get 6 gal pre-boil. This means you need to use 7 gallons water in total:

The no-sparge scenario could give you 81% efficiency. You see that all the water is added to the mash (before or after the sacc rest).

The 2 batch sparge scenario adds 3 gallons to the mash and divides the remaining 4 gallons equally across 2 sparge steps. When you then combine all 3 run-offs you can get 93% efficiency.

Note that this efficiency assumes 100% conversion efficiency, i.e. your mash converts all the grains starch. This is not always a given and you could change that in the spreadsheet.

While the higher efficiency number sounds more attractive, you have to keep in mind that the grain is sparged more intensely to get to this number and that you may end up over-sparging. The efficiency can be so high for small beers because the grain retains less water which is a major factor in batch sparging efficiency.

The documentation for the spreadsheet is here: Batch Sparge and Party Gyle Simulator

Kai

 

[bandt9299]

I tried a one batch sparge on a 1.056 beer and my effeciency went down, when I split the additions in half usually 2.5 gallons each at 195 degrees I get much better effeciency, i wont sparge all of the water at once again.

 

[pkeeler]

There is very little water flow in a bed of grains. You need to stir in order for the water to make contact with all of the grain. If you don't stir, lots of sugar will be stuck inside of the bed of grains.

I didn't say not to stir. But you don't have to get out the electric mixer to do it. You also don't have to "wait 15 min" before stirring or after. Or 10 minutes, or any time. Add your sparge water. Stir, Vorlauf. Drain.

 

[LVBen]

I didn't say not to stir. But you don't have to get out the electric mixer to do it. You also don't have to "wait 15 min" before stirring or after. Or 10 minutes, or any time. Add your sparge water. Stir, Vorlauf. Drain.

This might be part of the reason: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparging

Several people claim that they get better efficiency by waiting, but I suppose that they might not be getting fulling converted grains from their mash.

 

[winvarin]

I wound up doing 2 additions. The only change from my usual method is that I added mashout water and sparge water altogether before the first drain.

I added 3 gal total of 186F (per dennybrew.com temp suggestion). Took almost a gallon of recirc before I was running clear (I really need to get a pump and stop doing this by hand). Pulled just shy of 5 gallons on my first run.

Got it on the flame immediately (although this beer style could stand to be more attenuated, but I mashed low).

Got my 7 gallon pre-boil with the second addition.

It's chilling now. I didn't measure gravity on the pre-boil volume, so I will have to wait until I get it in the fermenter to determine how my efficiency faired.