Batch sparge not working well

[Walker]

My understanding (and practice) for batch sparging it to have the 1st runnings make up 50% of the total runnings I will collect. SO, if I am using two sparge batches, they will each be 25% of the total runnings. This is how I've always done it based on my reading on the topic several years ago. I get 75% of i use a single sparge, and 80% if I split that into two smaller sparges.



AT ANY RATE....


Something seems wrong with the fact that you put 15 quarts in and only get 8 quarts out with 12 lbs of grain. 12 lbs of grain will absorb a little under 1 gallon of water, so that explains where 4 of your 15 quarts went, but where the hell are the other 3?

Large dead-space?

 

[DeafSmith]

Here's an analysis of batch sparging, efficiency vs. number of sparges, etc.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis

 

[Pappers_]

FWIW, I split the water almost evenly between the mash and two sparges.

 

[Gremlyn]

I figure out how much water I need to mash in at my decided qts/lb ratio, and then split the sparge into 2 even batches.

 

[GRHunter]

Thanks everyone, there's lots of good advise in this thread. Now I need to clear out a couple of carboys so that I can brew another batch and put some of this advise to use.

 

[deggenbe]

I go to Adventures in Home-brewing in Taylor also.
Their default crush size on the Mill is 37. (I wasn't happy with their 37, My eff was taking a hit when it was set to that)
If you simply ask, they will change their Mill setting.
ask for something between 30-34 and examine the crush.

 

[JonBoy47]

And while we are at it.....were you able to get your efficiency up? If so, what was the issue?

 

[Waunabeer]

I too am getting low efficiency numbers. I asked Midwest what their mill was set to and they responded 0.020 - 0.025, which I think is pretty tight. So I can't blame their mill, it is probably something stupid I'm doing. I've tried batch sparging, fly sparging and decoction and get similar results (58% - 65% efficiency). I don't think I'm getting enough of the mash out of the tun.

Maybe next time I'll try a double sparge and tilt the cooler towards the end to really push out the sugars.

 

[wookiemofo]

I too am getting low efficiency numbers. I asked Midwest what their mill was set to and they responded 0.020 - 0.025, which I think is pretty tight. So I can't blame their mill, it is probably something stupid I'm doing. I've tried batch sparging, fly sparging and decoction and get similar results (58% - 65% efficiency). I don't think I'm getting enough of the mash out of the tun.

Maybe next time I'll try a double sparge and tilt the cooler towards the end to really push out the sugars.

I'd question that mil setting... although I believe (and I could be wrong) that midwest uses a different mill then their walk in customers. I've never seen a worker in the grain room crushing grains when I've been in there. However every time I've stepped foot in that place, there is at least 2 other people waiting to crush grain. I stopped buying grain from MW and switched to brewmasters and my eff went up a decent amount. My last batch was around 62% because the relative humidity outside was 85% and my evap rate sucked.

 

[broadbill]

My last batch was around 62% because the relative humidity outside was 85% and my evap rate sucked.

Evaporation rate doesn't have anything to do with efficiency.

 

[wookiemofo]

Evaporation rate doesn't have anything to do with efficiency.

I was under the impression it did, but I know jack. My theory was low evaporation rate equals a higher post boil volume which means a thinner less condensed wort which means a lower OG. Isn't that half the purpose of the boil? Hop utilization and condensing of the wort?

I had a lot more wort left after my boil.

 

[JonBoy47]

I was under the impression it did, but I know jack. My theory was low evaporation rate equals a higher post boil volume which means a thinner less condensed wort which means a lower OG. Isn't that half the purpose of the boil? Hop utilization and condensing of the wort?

It is definately a result of the boil. But efficiency is based on the amount of sugar extracted from the grain during the mash. The boil has nothing to do with mash efficiency.

 

[wookiemofo]

Ah... Was I talking about brewhouse efficiency? Or is that something different as well?

 

[petep1980]

Low efficiency, extract or brew house isn't necessarily a bad thing.

You can bang your head against the wall, spend money on new equipment, or spend another $3 on malt. It's not that big of a deal.

Extract/Brewhouse efficiency shouldn't always be some sort of unspoken pissing match.

 

[Waunabeer]

...but if you simply up your grain bill, then you should expect an even higher OG. If you are struggling with efficiency, then you will still have undershot your expected OG and have low efficiency values.

 

[makomachine]

Consistency is better than a higher % efficiency and that's an item the OP is dealing with as well. I'll take 60% efficiency consistently than have 10 to 20 % swings that I can't plan my process around. Grain isnt all that expensive but finding out what's driving the inconsistencies would be my priority. Lots of great advice in this thread!

 

[broadbill]

Ah... Was I talking about brewhouse efficiency? Or is that something different as well?

When the term "efficiency" is discussed by homebrewers it typically refers to what is known as "brewhouse efficiency". As JonBoy mentioned it is the actual amount of sugars you extract from the grain as a percentage of the theoretical maximum you could get.

There are also such things as conversion efficiency (efficiency of conversion of starch to sugar in the mash process) and Lauter efficiency (how well the grains are rinsed). Together these make up what you end up with as a brewhouse efficiency. Homebrewers typically do not splice out which is which in order to troubleshoot brewhouse efficiency; they just run through the typical set of issues that are known to cause poor efficiency (grain crush, sparge water channeling, dead space etc).

Hope this helps....for Kaiser's treatise on the subject (all the information you could possibly need:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

 

[Pappers_]

...but if you simply up your grain bill, then you should expect an even higher OG. If you are struggling with efficiency, then you will still have undershot your expected OG and have low efficiency values.

Hi Waunabeer, the highlighted and italicized portion is where brewers can do something - i.e. put their actual efficiency numbers in so that they are accurately predicting the OG.

Many brewers use brewing software. Lets say I'm following a recipe that assumes an efficiency of 80% and an OG of 1.050, but I know that I get 70% efficiency. If I enter my actual expected efficiency in the software (70%), then I can adjust the grain bill so that my expected OG is 1.050.

High efficiency is very important for commercial brewers, much less so for homebrewers. Consistency in a homebrewers efficiency is important, so that s/he can predict what the og of any given recipe will be, based on their efficiency.

 

[Waunabeer]

Hi Waunabeer, the highlighted and italicized portion is where brewers can do something - i.e. put their actual efficiency numbers in so that they are accurately predicting the OG.

Many brewers use brewing software. Lets say I'm following a recipe that assumes an efficiency of 80% and an OG of 1.050, but I know that I get 70% efficiency. If I enter my actual expected efficiency in the software (70%), then I can adjust the grain bill so that my expected OG is 1.050.

High efficiency is very important for commercial brewers, much less so for homebrewers. Consistency in a homebrewers efficiency is important, so that s/he can predict what the og of any given recipe will be, based on their efficiency.

Ahh, I get it. I have beer smith software and will have to change the default brewhouse efficiency %. Thanks.

 

[jmf143]

AT ANY RATE....


Something seems wrong with the fact that you put 15 quarts in and only get 8 quarts out with 12 lbs of grain. 12 lbs of grain will absorb a little under 1 gallon of water, so that explains where 4 of your 15 quarts went, but where the hell are the other 3?

Large dead-space?

Absorption loss on 12lbs of grain is about 1.5 gallons . . . .

 

[jmf143]

What's your process? - 1) Pre-heat my tun\cooler 2) Empty the pre-heated water, dump in the gain, add my strike water . . .

There's no need to dump your pre-heat water. Pre-heat your tun with the full amount of strike water, stir it until it cools to your desired strike temp and then add your grain.

 

[E-Mursed]

Curious if GRHunter was able to solve his efficiency issue and if so, what was the solution.

I saw in his gallery pics that there is a motorized grain mill.

 

[idigg]

I really don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm having similar issues. I get my grain crushed at Northern Brewer in West Allis. They have there mill set to .040" which to me isn't a very fine crush for batch sparging, so I usually get an extra lb of base grain for what the recipe calls for. Do you think northern brewer would lower the mill setting for me temporarily?

Can someone look at my brew process? I use a 48 quart coleman cooler, SS braid filter, basically what Don Osborn and Denny use.

1. Heat mash water to 167*F
2. Dump 167*F mash water into tun, allow mash water to get to 164*F.
3. Slowly mix in crushed grain while stirring very WELL.
4. Stir until mash is stable at 152*F, close lid. Start 60 minute mash.
5. Stir mash at 15 minutes.
6. Stir mash at 25 minutes.
7. Prepare 185*F sparge water at 30 minutes.
8. At 60 minutes, vorlauf first runnings into bucket.
9. Add 185*F sparge water to mash, stir, allow to sit for 5 minutes.
10. Add first runnings from bucket to boil kettle.
11. Vorlauf second runnings to boil kettle.
12. Start boil 60 minutes boil.

Look okay? I get my temperatures and water volumes from CP's Brew Chart. I always end up with 6.5 gal in BK, and boil down to 5.5 gal.

Thanks - Justin

 

[broadbill]

I really don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm having similar issues. I get my grain crushed at Northern Brewer in West Allis. They have there mill set to .040" which to me isn't a very fine crush for batch sparging, so I usually get an extra lb of base grain for what the recipe calls for. Do you think northern brewer would lower the mill setting for me temporarily?

Can someone look at my brew process? I use a 48 quart coleman cooler, SS braid filter, basically what Don Osborn and Denny use.

1. Heat mash water to 167*F
2. Dump 167*F mash water into tun, allow mash water to get to 164*F.
3. Slowly mix in crushed grain while stirring very WELL.
4. Stir until mash is stable at 152*F, close lid. Start 60 minute mash.
5. Stir mash at 15 minutes.
6. Stir mash at 25 minutes.
7. Prepare 185*F sparge water at 30 minutes.
8. At 60 minutes, vorlauf first runnings into bucket.
9. Add 185*F sparge water to mash, stir, allow to sit for 5 minutes.
10. Add first runnings from bucket to boil kettle.
11. Vorlauf second runnings to boil kettle.
12. Start boil 60 minutes boil.

Look okay? I get my temperatures and water volumes from CP's Brew Chart. I always end up with 6.5 gal in BK, and boil down to 5.5 gal.

Thanks - Justin

looks ok by me...what is your efficiency?

 

[Yooper]

I really don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm having similar issues. I get my grain crushed at Northern Brewer in West Allis. They have there mill set to .040" which to me isn't a very fine crush for batch sparging, so I usually get an extra lb of base grain for what the recipe calls for. Do you think northern brewer would lower the mill setting for me temporarily?

No, they won't. I asked about it (I have my own mill, and was buying grain but I asked anyway out of curiosity!) and they said no.

I don't usually stir my mash once I'm mashed in, but you can do it and it's fine.

Your process looks great! I guess the best thing to do is to just plan on the same efficiency, if you're getting consistency.

 

[idigg]

My eff. has been mid to upper 60's. I think I'm going to invest in a barley crusher, even though my wife says no!

 

[Jklinden]

I think stirring is the key when batch sparging. In fly sparging the motion of the water running through the grain bed rinses the sugars from the grain into the wort. In batch sparging you don't have any rinsing action so you have to stir to get the sugars into the wort. Im a noob but brew at 83% and stir like it's my job.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

<...>
8. At 60 minutes, vorlauf first runnings into bucket.
9. Add 185*F sparge water to mash, stir, allow to sit for 5 minutes.
10. Add first runnings from bucket to boil kettle.
11. Vorlauf second runnings to boil kettle.

I'm not 100% I understand this part. But here's how I do mine.

For batch sparging, repeat this until the right amount of wort is collected to the kettle (you can do one batch sparge, 2 batch sparges, etc etc. It's your call):

For the number of batch sparges:
...Stir the mash
...Wait 5 minutes
...Vorlauf (return to mash tun) the runnings until they are clear
...Drain the mash tun to the kettle
...Add sparge water if you have any left.
End loop when out of sparge water (or required amount of wort has been attained)

[Yeah I'm in IT]

If I batch sparge, I normally do 4-5 batch sparges. It's a personal choice really. I just figure out roughly how much water I need to cover the grains +1 inch, and divide that from the number quarts I need to sparge. If I call for 20 quarts of sparge water, and it takes me 5 quarts to cover the grain bed, I will then do 4 batch sparges (20 / 4).

I get 80-82% on both batch sparge and fly sparge.

BTW, 185F sparge water is a bit on the high end, the generally accepted temperature is 165-175F.

M_C

 

[huge1s]

I am a noob at this, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the thermometer. Is it calibrated? You could think your water is at the right temp, but it is no. Just an idea on another variable.

 

[broadbill]

My eff. has been mid to upper 60's. I think I'm going to invest in a barley crusher, even though my wife says no!

Maybe ask them to run it through the mill twice and see if that helps? You can also try ordering from another brew shop and see if that helps (I've had good luck with Brewmaster's Warehouse).