Batch sparge not working well

[CidahMastah]

I think stirring is the key when batch sparging. In fly sparging the motion of the water running through the grain bed rinses the sugars from the grain into the wort. In batch sparging you don't have any rinsing action so you have to stir to get the sugars into the wort. Im a noob but brew at 83% and stir like it's my job.

I assume that you mean stirring before you sparge? I have never heard/seen of anyone stirring in the middle of a sparge. Stirring will likely get you a stuck sparge.

 

[Jklinden]

Exactly! I stir then wait for 10 or so and then vorlauf and go from there

 

[Denny]

Exactly! I stir then wait for 10 or so and then vorlauf and go from there

No need to wait for 10 minutes. I've done it many times both with and without the wait and found no difference.

 

[Denny]

The more sparges you do, efficiency should increase in theory. But as in most cases, there is a point of diminishing returns. I feel that three runnings of approx. the same volume is a good compromise b/w labor in and eficiency.

If you're doing that, either your cooler is too small or you might as well be fly sparging. Personally, I've found so little gain from doing more than one sparge that I almost never do 2. My average efficiency with a single batch sparge is in the mid-high 80s.

 

[Denny]

If I batch sparge, I normally do 4-5 batch sparges. It's a personal choice really. I just figure out roughly how much water I need to cover the grains +1 inch, and divide that from the number quarts I need to sparge. If I call for 20 quarts of sparge water, and it takes me 5 quarts to cover the grain bed, I will then do 4 batch sparges (20 / 4).

I get 80-82% on both batch sparge and fly sparge.

BTW, 185F sparge water is a bit on the high end, the generally accepted temperature is 165-175F.

M_C

Sure it's a personal choice, but why? 99% of the time I do a single batch sparge and I get average efficiency in the mid-high 80s. If you're doing 4-5 batch sparges, you might as well be fly sparging.

And BTW, the generally accepted batch sparge temp is 185-190F, which _may_ get your grainbed to 168. IME it will be lower. It's grain temp that matters, not water temp.

 

[idigg]

Denny to the rescue!

 

[Homercidal]

No, they won't. I asked about it (I have my own mill, and was buying grain but I asked anyway out of curiosity!) and they said no.

Yikes! That seems like an AWFULLY large gap for crushing grains...

I mean, I know places might want to run a little large to help prevent stuck mashes, but that's a long ways from .032!

I'd either think about getting my own mill or finding a new source for crushed grains.

 

[Homercidal]

Sure it's a personal choice, but why? 99% of the time I do a single batch sparge and I get average efficiency in the mid-high 80s. If you're doing 4-5 batch sparges, you might as well be fly sparging.

And BTW, the generally accepted batch sparge temp is 185-190F, which _may_ get your grainbed to 168. IME it will be lower. It's grain temp that matters, not water temp.

I'm with Denny on this. I used to sparge twice, but lately I find it faster and easier to do s single sparge and just spend a small amount on a little bit more grain. The difference was literally a couple of points.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Sure it's a personal choice, but why? 99% of the time I do a single batch sparge and I get average efficiency in the mid-high 80s. If you're doing 4-5 batch sparges, you might as well be fly sparging.

No reason in particular other than I do it this way. And that's why I said it's a personal choice. I also probably wouldn't have the room to load up so much water for a single sparge. If your brewing works fine and you get good efficiency with a single sparge, than there's no reason to do multiple.

And BTW, the generally accepted batch sparge temp is 185-190F, which _may_ get your grainbed to 168. IME it will be lower. It's grain temp that matters, not water temp.

So Palmer got it all wrong with his 170F, aye?

Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer.

M_C

 

[CidahMastah]

So Palmer got it all wrong with his 170F, aye?

I always believed Palmer meant the temp of the grain plus sparge water added should not exceed 170F. to get the sparge to 168-170, typically that requires sparge water that is 185-190F.


+1 on single sparge. Surprised that with all that sparging you aren't running into tannin issues, of course I guess it shouldn't be an issue since you are working with the preboil volume only. You are certainly raising the PH towards alkaline and if you are using hot water... recipe for tannin extraction.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

I always believed Palmer meant the temp of the grain plus sparge water added should not exceed 170F. to get the sparge to 168-170, typically that requires sparge water that is 185-190F.


+1 on single sparge. Surprised that with all that sparging you aren't running into tannin issues, of course I guess it shouldn't be an issue since you are working with the preboil volume only. You are certainly raising the PH towards alkaline and if you are using hot water... recipe for tannin extraction.

I'm not sure how you can read "mash temperature" from "The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH.".

Anyways. Never had a problem with tannins, ever.

M_C

 

[CidahMastah]

I'm not sure how you can read "mash temperature" from "The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH.".

Anyways. Never had a problem with tannins, ever.

M_C

Even so - Every brewing software out there (er ok at least beersmith ) calculates your "sparge water" temp like it does strike water:

add X gallons of water at X temp to achieve 168F. i.e. sparge water is usually always like 180F+. The result is a final temp of sparge water + grain bed of 168F

Perhaps after I read that (palmers book), I inferred the rest based on how I saw beersmith giving sparge water temps above 168F.

However heat alone won't cause tannin release as I understand it. You need heat and an alkaline PH, not one, both. Personally I have never had a tannin problem so I don't know from my own anecdotal experience.

 

[Tyru007]

+1 with Denny. I rarely do more than one sparge and get mid 70's. If you are not adjusting your sparge pH, then your pH rises after you first sparge and you begin to extract tannins. IMO, you get a better quality wort by not trying to extract every bit of sugar.

My process:

Adjust water chemistry for beer.

Heat water (1.5 qts/lb) to calculated temperature + 3deg to pre-heat cooler.
(about 4 gallons of 169 deg water for 10-12 lbs of grain)

Add water to cooler, cover and wait a few minutes to stabilize, then check temperature.

Dump in crushed grains all at once and stir. (The thinner mash helps to prevent any dough balls)

Let sit for a few minutes to stabilize and adjust mash temp with boiling or cold water, as needed.

Cover and then check temperature again after 30 minutes. (usually only drops about 1 deg) I do not stir as this will reduce the temperature.

After the 60 minute mark, check the temperature again, stir, look at and taste the wort (should be clear with grain particles and taste sweet) you can check coversion with iodine test, but i typcially do not.

I crack the outlet valve at about 1/8 to 1/4 open to get a steady but slow drain rate. (not as slow as fly sparging but not full open either). This help clarify the wort, keeps the grain bed from compacting and allow the grain to drain and release wort better. Takes about 10 minutes to drain.

I return about 1-2 quarts to the top of the grain bed using a spoon to prevent disturbing the grain bed. I drain as much out as I can. (I typically collect about 3 to 3.5 gallons.

I then add enough sparge water to get me my pre boil volume (about 3-3.5 gallons of 175 deg water). Stir, cover, let sit for 10 minutes, stir again and drain out same as above.

While I'm sparging, I pour my first runnings in my boil pot and start heating to mash out and start boiling. I'll add the second runnings when they are finished draining.

I usually check the SG of the first runnings, second runnings, combined wort (preboil) and final wort (after the boil). You can adjust my SG with some DME (if too low).

 

[JoeyChopps]

After reading this now I got a ? I am still fairly new to ag but I saw some videos of people opening the valve wide open to drain from there mash tun. Could this be a reason for my low efficiency? ( BTW I'm already working on my revvy style grain mill )

 

[CidahMastah]

After reading this now I got a ? I am still fairly new to ag but I saw some videos of people opening the valve wide open to drain from there mash tun. Could this be a reason for my low efficiency? ( BTW I'm already working on my revvy style grain mill )

Valve wide open is a batch sparge in process!

I crank mine wide open and drain the first runnings from the mash. Close valve, add sparge water to make up my preboil volume needs, stir, crank open the valve full bore and them it is time to boil the collected 1st and 2nd runnings.

I get 76-78% on regular days. Sometimes up into 80% land.

 

[diS]

I am preparing for my 1st AG batch, Moster mill is in basement and grains are on their way.. so this thread was really good read.

I"ve got few questions:
- How important is to cover grain bed with sparge water?
I know that more sugars will be rinsed if we can cover it, but what if we want to do 2-3 sparges and sparge volume is not enough to cover grain bed (is it possible not to cover grain bed with some normal-design MLT after all)?

- At what flow do you sparge?
CidahMastah says that he wide opens his valve.. but Palmer mentions rule of thumb of 1 quart per minute. If we lauter this slow it will take 20-30 mins to get 5-6 gall.. I though that the point of batch sparge is to save time (not to get hasty and sloppy but do it quicker than with fly sparge) .. or 20-30 minutes are normal?

- Also, what crush size would you suggest for batch sparge?

 

[CidahMastah]

I am preparing for my 1st AG batch, Moster mill is in basement and grains are on their way.. so this thread was really good read.

I"ve got few questions:
- How important is to cover grain bed?
I know that more sugars will be rinsed if we can cover it, but what if we want to do 2-3 sparges and sparge volume is not enough to cover grain bed (is it possible not to cover grain bed with some normal-design MLT after all)?

you have to cover your grain bed with mash water - or you won't get good conversion. Please try to get it out of your head than more sparging is better



Batch sparge, etc From Denny himself:

http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

I thought the same things you were when I started. all that stuff is just extra time and work IMO.

btw: there is nothing hasty or slopping about batch sparge I described. Unless getting comparable OGs to any other method, in about 2-5 minutes vs. 30 minutes or hours, is hasty and sloppy. In that case... *insert gospel preacher's voice* if slow batch sparging is wrong.... then I don't wanna be right

edit: I do open the valve at half mast to let the grain bed set for a few seconds, then open full bore.

My first traditional AG brew, I actually batch sparged without knowing what it was called. My brew partner just cranked it open when I went in the house, I came out and thought we ruined the beer. Turned out we got 76% efficiency and hit OG and and FG #'s (so that mash was all good). You might get a few points doing other methods. I will just add another oz or 2 to the grain bill and let beersmith do the work.

 

[diS]

Dont be offended, that hasty or sloppy thing wasn't pointed to you, but for overall process of mashing and saving time with batch sparging.

I was thinking about covering grain bed with sparge water, not strike (I"ll edit post).. I think I"ll do double sparge just to get feeling, and after experimenting with few batches I"ll clearly know what suits best to me.

 

[BWN]

My first AG batch I got about 68% efficiency doing one sparge and using 1.25 qts./lb. in my mash. The next one I used 1.5 qts./lb. and did 2 batch sparges and got 78%. I now get around 80% or higher. I don't know which gave me better percentages but I am going to do my next batch at 1.25 qts./lb and 2 batch sparges and after that do 1.5 qts./lb. and 1 batch sparge and see where I get better results. I suspect it is a combination of both though.

 

[broadbill]

Dont be offended, that hasty or sloppy thing wasn't pointed to you, but for overall process of mashing and saving time with batch sparging.

I was thinking about covering grain bed with sparge water, not strike (I"ll edit post).. I think I"ll do double sparge just to get feeling, and after experimenting with few batches I"ll clearly know what suits best to me.

covering grain bed has nothing to do with efficiency of batch sparging (maybe you are getting mixed up with fly sparging).

With batch sparge you add water and mix...the sugar concentration between the grain and the sparge water equilibrate and then you drain off the now-sugary sparge water.

 

[Denny]

So Palmer got it all wrong with his 170F, aye?



M_C

Yes, as a matter of fact he did. He and I have discussed this.

 

[Denny]

- At what flow do you sparge?
CidahMastah says that he wide opens his valve.. but Palmer mentions rule of thumb of 1 quart per minute. If we lauter this slow it will take 20-30 mins to get 5-6 gall.. I though that the point of batch sparge is to save time (not to get hasty and sloppy but do it quicker than with fly sparge) .. or 20-30 minutes are normal?

- Also, what crush size would you suggest for batch sparge?

John is talking about fly sparging. Batch sparging uses a different technique. Apples and oranges. It takes me no more than 15 min. from the time I start my mash runoff til the time I end my sparge runoff to collect 7-7.5 gal. of wort. That includes vorlaufing the mash, running it off, stirring in the sparge water, vorlaufing that, and running off the sparge.

 

[Denny]

My first AG batch I got about 68% efficiency doing one sparge and using 1.25 qts./lb. in my mash. The next one I used 1.5 qts./lb. and did 2 batch sparges and got 78%. I now get around 80% or higher. I don't know which gave me better percentages but I am going to do my next batch at 1.25 qts./lb and 2 batch sparges and after that do 1.5 qts./lb. and 1 batch sparge and see where I get better results. I suspect it is a combination of both though.

I can tell you from my own experience that a higher mash ratio and a single sparge not only increased my efficiency more than multiple sparges, I think it made better beer due to getting more out of the initial runoff.

 

[Denny]

Dont be offended, that hasty or sloppy thing wasn't pointed to you, but for overall process of mashing and saving time with batch sparging.

I was thinking about covering grain bed with sparge water, not strike (I"ll edit post).. I think I"ll do double sparge just to get feeling, and after experimenting with few batches I"ll clearly know what suits best to me.

You REALLY need to read this...www.dennybrew.com . Or one of the articles I've written for Zymurgy or BYO.

 

[BWN]

I can tell you from my own experience that a higher mash ratio and a single sparge not only increased my efficiency more than multiple sparges, I think it made better beer due to getting more out of the initial runoff.

Thanks for the tip, I guess I'll try it the other way around then.

 

[CidahMastah]

Dont be offended, that hasty or sloppy thing wasn't pointed to you, but for overall process of mashing and saving time with batch sparging.

I was thinking about covering grain bed with sparge water, not strike (I"ll edit post).. I think I"ll do double sparge just to get feeling, and after experimenting with few batches I"ll clearly know what suits best to me.

wasn't offended my friend - not in the least

Tried to make it light with the preacher thing

 

[Bobby_M]

John is talking about fly sparging. Batch sparging uses a different technique. Apples and oranges. It takes me no more than 15 min. from the time I start my mash runoff til the time I end my sparge runoff to collect 7-7.5 gal. of wort. That includes vorlaufing the mash, running it off, stirring in the sparge water, vorlaufing that, and running off the sparge.

Palmer gives the illusion that he's covering both fly and batch sparge methods equally but what happened was that his own preference for fly sparging caused enough bias that he forgot to insert caveats such as "when fly sparging" when he talks about manifold design, runoff speed, and sparge temps. Simple mistake, but it does cause a lot of confusion for people trying to batch sparge.

 

[JoeyChopps]

Valve wide open is a batch sparge in process!

I crank mine wide open and drain the first runnings from the mash. Close valve, add sparge water to make up my preboil volume needs, stir, crank open the valve full bore and them it is time to boil the collected 1st and 2nd runnings.

I get 76-78% on regular days. Sometimes up into 80% land.

Cool thanks this kind of got me think but I think my problem lies in the grinding of my grain will fix that next month

 

[RJS]

This is a great Thread. Also nice write-up on your webpage Denny. Good stuff here.

 

[RichBenn]

I can tell you from my own experience that a higher mash ratio and a single sparge not only increased my efficiency more than multiple sparges, I think it made better beer due to getting more out of the initial runoff.

There are some graphs on Kaiser's web page that show that multiple (2) sparges give you about 4% more efficiency than a single sparge. This matches my own data exactly.

So I think your increased efficiency is due to the mash ratio. How thin of a mash do you wind up with?

Rich