Basement brewery ventilation stumbling block

[TrickyDick]

Hey,

Been thinking about going electric. Have a mini basement and step one in considering ANY further planning revolves around exhaust ventilation.

I have a suitable wall against which I could place the brewing gear, and there is ample room for a hood. I would need to get a hole put into the wall. The wall is built of pressure treated? Concrete filled cinder block with re-rod. I'm told there are industrial saws that can cut 8" hole no problem. On the outside of the basement, the hole would be about 2-4 feet above ground level or so. I think that I would probably need a 8" hole based on some preliminary research.
The real concern / question I have is about that hole once it's drilled. I'm obviously not going to be brewing with great frequency, and I do not want bugs, rodents, roaches, dirt, rain,etc coming back in through the hole. I know there are louvres that can be installed on a bent along with a metal screen, but, this will only deter, not prevent bug/rat intrusion - they chew through some thin metal. Any ideas on where to look for solutions to this problem? A double sided guillotine plate that lifts up to open the airway, combined with louvres and a screen seems like a good way to go, but I've no idea where to look for that kind of hardware.

So the next question is the fan/ blower. I suspect that the fan is going to make a heck of a lot of noise to the point that it'll be very annoying. Last of off, what kind of heat is electric brewing going to shed into my basement brewery during the entire process? The basement does have AC, but it's has no air return. A exhaust vent of course will take a lot of the steam and such away, but the radiant heating from the hot kettles I worry will turn the brewery into a sauna.

Any tips, suggestions, or threads/resources where I can turn for more research appreciated. Personal experience and guidance also would be helpful.


Thanks

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[BrewerinBR]

Here is what I use a 6 inch inline fan that moves 400 CFM. I directed my 6 inch vent out a window by cutting a piece of plywood the size of the window and slipping it the same track. Cut a 6 inch hole in the plywood and attach a connection pipe, caulk to seal and add some steel screen to the front. Between the rigid six inch pipe and the connector on the plywood is a 24 inch piece of semi-flexible pipe so I can remove it from the window and close the window when not in use.

http://www.vminnovations.com/Product_9448/HYDROFARM-Active-Air-6-In-Line-Fan-w-Mounting-Bracket-ACDF6.html?rd=gpf_9448&gclid=CJGFg4WgncACFc1_MgodoVIAaw

Rodent Guards at home improvement stores.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_328908-131-L1491W_0__?productId=3242450&Ntt=dryer+vent+rodent+guard&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Ddryer%2Bvent%2Brodent%2Bguard&facetInfo=

 

[HiImBrian]

I actually work for a company where I design and sell these types of systems for commercial applications. A couple things to think about:

1) Size of the hood you are looking to use. The larger the hood the better your capture of the heat/steam and you can usually run a fan at lower CFM because you have more capture area. A smaller hood will require a fan that can move more CFM to make sure you have enough "suction" to capture all of the heat/steam.
2) Don't forget that you need to somehow replace the air you are exhausting. For a small application like this, you could probably get by with just opening a window, but you'll want to make sure the window is a significant distance away from your operation as the air coming into your basement will be a bit drafty.
3) I assume you'll want an inline fan vs a wall mounted fan for aesthetics. You'll want to mount this in a place where you can access it for maintenance purposes. I wouldn't worry too much about noise actually. They make these bad boys pretty quiet nowadays.

 

[orangehero]

You can go this way:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/easy-cheap-stainless-vent-hood-418665/

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks for the help!

First off, my basement has no windows. It has no internal access to rest of house with a double door 8' wide total out of insulated aluminum. No windows. There is an AC duct overheard and it's on its own zone. I can turn the fan on with or without the AC compressor running to admit air if it is undesirable to leave doorway open (usually it is undesirable because of the heat and humidity). The area where I will be setting up the brewing gear is at the rear of the basement area, rather far from the doors, maybe 25 - 30 feet?

The large hood idea seems in stark contrast to the stainless bowl hood. I would think that I would probably either fashion a hood out of plastic, or hire a guy to make one of stainless. A have a friend who owns a steel business building all sorts of stuff like that.

Good to know about the fans not being as noisy as I feared. Aesthetically, it really doesn't matter what the fan looks like if I had a external mount fan, might be less noisy inside. The fan would be partially concealed by a row of hedges if I had an external wall mount fan.

Work is blocking me from seeing the rodent blocking link in an above post. I'll have to check that when I get home.

Really to me the most important thing,a side from proper function of the hood, would be a way to keep vermin/roaches out.

I should try to post some pics so you can see what I'm talking about.



Had these in my photo stream. One shows the air duct standing near the doors shooting toward the rear of the basement. The brew rig would be along the back right hand wall.

The next shows the doors going into the basement. From this patio, there is a walkway that goes up the side alongside the basement. There are some hedges along that side, but plenty of room to put a hole in the wall.

Thanks

TD

Edit

Also, by the way, when calculating CFM ventilation requirements, I read to divide the wattage of boil element by 17.6 to obtain correct CFM rating on your exhaust.

Though I do not know what I'll be using for this now, for reference, a boil coil in a 20 gallon kettle is 5000 watts, and many others use 5500 watt elements. When considering the CFM I would need, do I take into account the wattage of only the boil kettle, or also for the HLT/MLT elements as well? I suspect it's only the boil kettle because the others would be not operating at the same time, and also not boiling...




Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[TrickyDick]

So using those calculations, it's less than 350 CFM needed for just a boil kettle.
I'm assuming 5500 watts is plenty for 10 gallon full wort boil.

I've found a few exhaust vents by broan that include internal louvres and fan, external mount. I am thinking that in addition to this, I could install manual damper or plate where the vent ducts connect to this to the hole in the wall.

Seems I could probably get away with a 6" hole, but maybe an 8" hole with a slower fan speed would be better. I'll probably have a friend of mine in the metal fabrication business make me a custom hood for this project. This is probably going to be a year or more long project it seems. The weather here in FL is so hot and humid, that trying to brew outdoors all day is just not a fun a way to spend the day, assuming I don't get interrupted by a thunder/lightning storm.

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[MrSaLTy]

If You haven't seen it check this out....

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/ventilation

Lots of good info.

 

[TrickyDick]

Been there, read that. I actually bought their booklet to read up.

As far as the rest of the plan, I have already got a brewing sink in the basement, plus treated water supply.
I'd be basically just doing the electric brewery and ventilation around the corner from the sink. Probably up against a wall, which is finished with drywall. Would probably want a waterproof/heatproof backsplash, maybe even tile, with some leftover tile we have from previous work. I really don't care what it looks like as far as tile color.

I have conduit and pull line for adding a sub panel for as much amperage as I'll need. I was thinking of running a 60 amp sub panel box there to cover all bases.

I'm not sure about the flooring (unfinished concrete), because I always spill stuff when I brew outside. I guess I'll need to learn to be more careful. No floor drain, but I have a nice mop!!

Can pretty much mount the brewery control panel wherever.

Not sure if re-cycling my propane stainless cart Brutus style rig to be the electric brewing stand or not. Sure would make things a bit easier it seems.

Need to spend some time reading the PDF and browsing some other HBT member electric basements breweries. I seen hoppo's, need to check out roadie, kal, and huaco builds. Any others to look at?

Thinking of going with electric rims. Seems simpler than herms. Have 15 gal blichman kettles now. Thinking I need a 29 gallon boil kettle. As it is with propane brewing, it's not big enough for a rigorous boil when doing 90 min boil 10 gallon batches. So whatever I end up choosing, I'll need to buy at least one new kettle. Honestly, the boil coil may not be such a bad option, but for the controller that runs it. Thinking about a Bru-Gear e20 Proboiler kettle for the new boil kettle.

Anyone doing decoction mashing with an electric brewery?? Not sure if the blichman kettles are induction compatible.

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[kevreh]

Instead of drilling throught the concrete, is there a wood 2x_ rim joist that sits on your concrete wall? If you go with the guillotine type door, I know that woodworking tool stores sell them for ventilation solutions.

 

[TrickyDick]

No wood. Solid concrete. No cap.steel trusses steel ceiling poured with concrete over that.

Could still probably use a guillotine type ventilation but with appropriate anchors into the concrete.

TD



Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[kevreh]

Are you hiring out the concrete drilling? It can be spendy, guessing at least a few hundred. You may be able to rent the drill and diamond bit yourself.

Thats a very well built house. Solid/poured concrete and those metal trusses! You usually see those in commercial buildings.

The inline vortex fans aren't that loud. Also, you can put the fan on the other side of the room from where you'll brew. Don't forget a speed control....do an ebay search for "vortex fan control". I have my fan on low when mashing, and high when boiling.

 

[MrSaLTy]

Need to spend some time reading the PDF and browsing some other HBT member electric basements breweries. I seen hoppo's, need to check out roadie, kal, and huaco builds. Any others to look at?

You can check out my build here although its not finished yet...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-eherms-mostly-kal-clone-home-brewery-421059/

 

[TrickyDick]

Are you hiring out the concrete drilling? It can be spendy, guessing at least a few hundred. You may be able to rent the drill and diamond bit yourself.

Thats a very well built house. Solid/poured concrete and those metal trusses! You usually see those in commercial buildings.

The inline vortex fans aren't that loud. Also, you can put the fan on the other side of the room from where you'll brew. Don't forget a speed control....do an ebay search for "vortex fan control". I have my fan on low when mashing, and high when boiling.

I will absolutely be hiring out the drill, the electrical work and the hood fabrication and installation. The hood will be basically right against the wall where the brewing gear is going to at, so it is not going to be running across the room. I am half tempted to buy a pre-fab bbq style grill hood and externally mounted fan.

Yeah there are not many basements in FL. They had to wait a long time to get the commercial struss installer to come out the install those metal trusses.

Thanks for the tips. The pre-fab control boxes from Kal are pricey. Anybody using one? Seems to be rather deluxe and professionally done stuff.

TD

 

[kevreh]

I will absolutely be hiring out the drill, the electrical work and the hood fabrication and installation. The hood will be basically right against the wall where the brewing gear is going to at, so it is not going to be running across the room. I am half tempted to buy a pre-fab bbq style grill hood and externally mounted fan.

Yeah there are not many basements in FL. They had to wait a long time to get the commercial struss installer to come out the install those metal trusses.

Thanks for the tips. The pre-fab control boxes from Kal are pricey. Anybody using one? Seems to be rather deluxe and professionally done stuff.

TD

Oh yeah, your in Florida...where basements are not common. High water table and all. Hence the concrete and rebar renforce cinder block walls. Any idea why they use metal trusses?

Keep in mind the hood should have some kind of baffle and channel to collect water. You'll get condensation from the boil.

There's a lot of plastic electric "project" boxes out there for less. You don't have to use metal.

 

[TrickyDick]

Architect planned it with metal trusses for strength I think. I think he thought it could be used as a tornado shelter or something. Not sure.

 

[TrickyDick]

You can check out my build here although its not finished yet...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-eherms-mostly-kal-clone-home-brewery-421059/

Looking good!

I think I need to make some measurements of the basement area so I know the kettle height and the distance from there to the hood. I have a feeling this project is going to take 3-4x longer and cost 2x more than I will end up planning for.

TD

 

[kevreh]

BTW, speaking of something besides the metal boxes, check out my thread. I used mdf and polycarbonate; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/kevrehs-4500w-basement-brewery-487760/ The built in fan makes sure heat doesn't build up. Besides, wood needs something around 400+ degrees before it starts on fire.

 

[TrickyDick]

I'm probably going to do some long thinking about this before going further. I don't need a sexy looking SS hood, and a cheapo one will be fine. Just as long as its large enough, and with enough static pressure to suck up the steam I'm happy. I think my concerns about bug and pest intrusion can be addressed, and I'll probably end up with a large guillotine type shutter on the inside of my big exhaust hole.

As I know I'll be needing a larger boil kettle (at a minimum) I'm going to wait a bit and do the hood first, and the electrical sub panel before proceeding to do any buying of expensive electric brewery control stuff, tempting as it may be.

Lots to think about.

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[HiImBrian]

Keep in mind the hood should have some kind of baffle and channel to collect water. You'll get condensation from the boil.

There's a lot of plastic electric "project" boxes out there for less. You don't have to use metal.

Not necessarily required. Even commercially, the majority of dish hoods do not use baffles. Obviously, if you're using a cheap inline fan you will want to make sure the motor is out of the airstream.

As for material, I'd just stick to something that's easily cleanable. Obviously, metal would be #1 choice, but it's not cheap and you'd want to stick with a 304 series stainless so it doesn't rust out on you. Heavy plastic could work as that's cleanable. I'd stay away from wood since it's porous and could get musty over time. Also hard to clean.

Lastly, a small gutter around the perimeter of the base of the hood will catch all the excess condensation.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yeah. Looking at the electric brewery Kal's site, he made a foam panel hood before buying the stainless and said it had no condensation. I'm just not sure how much of an issue it'll be. Aluminum is also an option. I have a friend in the metal business - gutters, chimney caps, custom kitchen stuff, hood,s you name it. When I get the electric installed, and the hole and fan installed, I'll call him over to tell m what I'd like to put in. Hopefully by that time, which could be months from now, I'll be further along in my plans.

Earlier a person said they worked professionally planning this stuff for commercial breweries. Any advice on planning the hood sizing? Let's say I'd have three 20 gal kettles close but not crammed together on a workbench or prep table. How many inches of overhang would I need on front and sides? If I have an adjustable fan speed, I'm thinking I could run a larger fan at a lower rpm to generate less noise with equal static pressure. The the hood size affect this? My duct will be probably no more than 2 feet to the fan including the width of the wall.

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[HiImBrian]

Earlier a person said they worked professionally planning this stuff for commercial breweries. Any advice on planning the hood sizing? Let's say I'd have three 20 gal kettles close but not crammed together on a workbench or prep table. How many inches of overhang would I need on front and sides? If I have an adjustable fan speed, I'm thinking I could run a larger fan at a lower rpm to generate less noise with equal static pressure. The the hood size affect this? My duct will be probably no more than 2 feet to the fan including the width of the wall.

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

Commercially, code says we need to have 6" overhang on all sides. I find this to be sufficient on the ends of the hood as long as some type of end panels are used. I would usually recommend more overhang on the front (~12) because that's where you'll see more spillage. I would not recommend going with a hood that's less than 18" tall because you end up with less "containment" area and you're farther from the surface of the kettles. I usually recommend 150CFM/ft of hood when covering kettles, but in this case you could probably sneak a little under that being that you're just making beer and your cooking load is pretty light. Also, keep in mind that the farther the hood is away from the kettles the more CFM you're going to have to pull. My 150CFM/ft is based off a max of 48" above the cooking surface. I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have.

 

[TrickyDick]

Commercially, code says we need to have 6" overhang on all sides. I find this to be sufficient on the ends of the hood as long as some type of end panels are used. I would usually recommend more overhang on the front (~12) because that's where you'll see more spillage. I would not recommend going with a hood that's less than 18" tall because you end up with less "containment" area and you're farther from the surface of the kettles. I usually recommend 150CFM/ft of hood when covering kettles, but in this case you could probably sneak a little under that being that you're just making beer and your cooking load is pretty light. Also, keep in mind that the farther the hood is away from the kettles the more CFM you're going to have to pull. My 150CFM/ft is based off a max of 48" above the cooking surface. I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have.

What do you mean by end panels?

Seems I'll need to find my kettles first to determine how tall they are, and then find my stand/table/cart that they will be sitting on during the brewing process so that I can see what type of clearance they have to the bottom of the trusses, which will be handy for mounting the hood to I would think. Once I know those distances, I can move forward. Probably don't need more than 2-2.5 feet of clearance above the kettles, for stirring, adding things, pouring grain in, etc. Then I can plan the fan and duct. Tentatively planning the fan to be mounted outside the house for less noise, and to make use of incorporated screen and baffle.

I think Kal's hood is only 12" tall. So 12" overhang up front, 6" on each side for another 12". I may be able to plan this before I have the actual kettles if I can get accurate measurements of everything. What do you mean by 150 CFM per foot of hood?

Spending a lot of money on a hood and ventilation is not very sexy, but it is critical to satisfying SWMBO not wanting to smell beer inside the house, and keeping the basement from becoming too humid. I imagine I will need to run the fan on the AC at full speed while I am brewing. Not sure how much air CFM it can push. I think its a 12 inch duct, runs right below the air handler into the basement.

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[kevreh]

Not necessarily required. Even commercially, the majority of dish hoods do not use baffles. Obviously, if you're using a cheap inline fan you will want to make sure the motor is out of the airstream.

As for material, I'd just stick to something that's easily cleanable. Obviously, metal would be #1 choice, but it's not cheap and you'd want to stick with a 304 series stainless so it doesn't rust out on you. Heavy plastic could work as that's cleanable. I'd stay away from wood since it's porous and could get musty over time. Also hard to clean.

Lastly, a small gutter around the perimeter of the base of the hood will catch all the excess condensation.

I know your a pro in the ventilation field, but I built my hood out of wood, and sealed it with a polyeurathane. You can see it in my build thread link one page back. No concerns since its only going to see moisture once or twice a month, not hours day in and out. Wood is easy to work with and lets you come up with a design that fits your needs. Having a construction background gives me some insight into whats too much moisture vs whats no problem.

 

[HiImBrian]

We sell these things called "Quarter End Panels" and they are actually pretty cheap, but also pretty easy to fab. They alone make a night/day difference.

150CFM/ft meaning if the hood is 5ft long then 5ft x 150CFM/ft = 750CFM. Keep in mind, you can probably come a bit under this, but I'd allow room to adjust the fan upwards if needed. Last thing you want is a full system that doesn't suck. (pun intended).

Lastly, I know I'm a bit bias, but I think a nice hood system can be very "sexy".

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks. When I have some more meaningful progress or questions to report, I'll post back. For now, I think I need to do some planning for the space to come up with a plan for a table, and for a set of kettles, and for hole and fan and hood placement and size, and for electrical requirements. Then I'll need a large budget....


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[jeffmeh]

FWIW, I have an external mount fan for my kitchen ventilation, and I love it for the quiet factor. It looks something like this, but is an older model from a different manufacturer.

You will need a way to draw in make-up air. A "fan in a can" would be great, but that would add noise, and I suspect just another hole would work. A guillotine type closure could work with that so you could close things up when not in use.

 

[TrickyDick]

I have a friend who custom installs commercial kitchen, residential, and industrial vents, hoods, and anything of metal, but specializes in exhaust ventilation. He visited me over the weekend and gave me a quote for doing the custom hood, duct, fan, wiring, cutting the 10" hole in reinforced poured in place 8" thick concrete. It was a big number, but it think it is a reasonable one, and might go down from what he said.
The electric plan will not be implemented anytime soon. I'll need to save up for year. I've contemplated selling my Brutus rig to pay for it, but that seems like a colossally bad idea. The prefabbed panel from Kal are pricey but no doubt worth the cash. I'm sure I could so something for less. I'd need new kettles to boot. I've predicted, including the hood, new kettles, a Kal prefab panel, probes, power cords, plus an electrician to install a new sub panel, that I'm looking at about 10k to do this. It Is going to take a lot of persuasion to convince SWMBO to even cut the vent hole, and it would be best that the true cost for doing this remains unknown. I'm planning to start the shoebox savings plan. This month. See you in a year...

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew