Baseball--AL or NL?

[Wolf]

The DH makes a better and more fair game

I'm curious...how is it more fair?

 

[Tophe]

f'n internet...i just typed up a long response for you then hit the wrong button.....get back to you tomorrow....gotta get to bed.

 

[the_bird]

Honestly, the NL is where good AL pitchers go when they can't compete anymore.

... and the AL is where NL hitters go when they're too broken down to play in the field anymore.

AL teams will score more runs, overall - but does that mean that they're better overall, or just that they're more freespending? The AL/NL superiority debate is also skewed by the fact that both the Yankees and the BoSox are in the AL and buying their way to victories.

 

[rdwj]

... and the AL is where NL hitters go when they're too broken down to play in the field anymore.

AL teams will score more runs, overall - but does that mean that they're better overall, or just that they're more freespending? The AL/NL superiority debate is also skewed by the fact that both the Yankees and the BoSox are in the AL and buying their way to victories.

But hitters move to the AL to do what they still can do well. Pitchers move because they're no longer good enough at what they do to compete against stronger lineups.

I'm sure money has something to do with it, but it's not really just about the top teams. If you look at payrolls for this year, the NL has 6 of the 7 lowest. Now, money doesn't always equal success, but it's hard to stay competitive when you won't spend.

 

[uwmgdman]

Interesting topic, as me too grew up with the Brewers as an AL team and now are an NL team. Having watched both leagues, I for some reason enjoy the NL more and I'm glad they made the switch. I can't really say why, maybe it's the developing rivalries or maybe because I think there is more strategy in the NL; double switches, having to plan for when your pitcher hits, etc. or maybe I just enjoy the game more now.

One thing that frightens me about the AL this year is if come June Baroid Bonds is traded and playing DH for someone like the Yankee's and breaks Hank Aaron's record. Baroid Bonds is a joke.

And dude I have to respectively disagree about Yost. I think he's a good coach. I know it's hard to believe.....but just wait til fall when they finally enter the postseason again!

 

[Cheesefood]

<cough>Babe Ruth</cough>

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

But hitters move to the AL to do what they still can do well. Pitchers move because they're no longer good enough at what they do to compete against stronger lineups.

Hitters move to the AL because they are no longer good enough to play the game. Pitchers move because they are still good enough to play professional ball. At least pitchers in the NL can still pitch (to a degree). Designated Hitters in the AL can't do 50% of what makes a baseball player a baseball player. No way would a pitcher still be pitching if he lost 50% of his effectiveness. Basically, your argument is backwards. A pitcher who still is good enough to pitch in the NL is more of a baseball player than a Designated Hitter who can't even play in the field!

I'm sure money has something to do with it, but it's not really just about the top teams. If you look at payrolls for this year, the NL has 6 of the 7 lowest. Now, money doesn't always equal success, but it's hard to stay competitive when you won't spend.

Very true. The AL has better teams. But that's an entirely different debate than that of which style of baseball is better. This is the second time you've brought up "AL is better" when discussing what set of rules is better. I don't see why that is relevant. It's like comparing the German form of Government to the North Korean form of government and declaring Germany's government is better because it is a nicer place to visit. Two different discussions there and one isn't relevant to the other. Anyway I just want to make sure you really understand what you are arguing about...

 

[rdwj]

Hitters move to the AL because they are no longer good enough to play the game. Pitchers move because they are still good enough to play professional ball. At least pitchers in the NL can still pitch (to a degree). Designated Hitters in the AL can't do 50% of what makes a baseball player a baseball player. No way would a pitcher still be pitching if he lost 50% of his effectiveness. Basically, your argument is backwards. A pitcher who still is good enough to pitch in the NL is more of a baseball player than a Designated Hitter who can't even play in the field!

The DH roll is to hit and they do it better than most position players. Most of them CAN play the field, just not brilliantly. With NL rules, plenty of these guys would still be playing the game as full time players because of their bats - which would make defenses worse. The guys that weren't full time players, would be part time players and they'd hit off the bench. They would still be very useful.

Pitchers that move to the NL ARE less effective. They're not good enough at their MAIN job to compete with the very best - that can't be debated. They're also mostly VERY poor hitters.

I want to see the best batters facing the best pitchers with the best possible defense behind them. That's AL ball.

If watching lesser pitchers facing fewer dangerous hitters with sometimes suspect defenses is what you want to see - by all means, watch the NL.

Very true. The AL has better teams. But that's an entirely different debate than that of which style of baseball is better. This is the second time you've brought up "AL is better" when discussing what set of rules is better. I don't see why that is relevant.

Did you miss Bird's quote directly above that response? It's relevant to his comment about the AL being better because they're spending more money.

 

[knipknup]

Originally Posted by Toot

Originally Posted by rdwj

You two need to get a room...

 

[Wolf]

Yeah no kiddin. A base hit with the pitcher up and a man on third?

How can that not pull at the heart strings of every red-blooded male who dreams of being able to step up to the plate just once?

Like Brewers pitcher Dave Bush, who just hit a 2 out, 2 rbi double against the Reds :rockin:

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Like Brewers pitcher Dave Bush, who just hit a 2 out, 2 rbi double against the Reds :rockin:

Isn't that the **** we all live for?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

The DH roll is to hit and they do it better than most position players. Most of them CAN play the field, just not brilliantly. With NL rules, plenty of these guys would still be playing the game as full time players because of their bats - which would make defenses worse. The guys that weren't full time players, would be part time players and they'd hit off the bench. They would still be very useful.

Pitchers that move to the NL ARE less effective. They're not good enough at their MAIN job to compete with the very best - that can't be debated. They're also mostly VERY poor hitters.

I want to see the best batters facing the best pitchers with the best possible defense behind them. That's AL ball.

If watching lesser pitchers facing fewer dangerous hitters with sometimes suspect defenses is what you want to see - by all means, watch the NL.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree then. While I'll concede that AL baseball is a stronger form of the game, and that it produces better match ups, I still can't abide it. Why not let Tiger Woods have a designated chipper from within 180 yards? And a designated putter once he's on the green? And a designated wedger when he's in the sand? After all, this would lead to a higher quality of golf.

And, indeed, you can't argue to the contrary! I can't refute your arguments! If you want premium, ideal, perfect baseball, you need a DH. You need the ability too keep your fielders out of the batters box to the greatest extent possible. You sure as heck need to keep the pitchers from hitting. You also need to keep Shaq from the freethrow line. Maybe let Shaq have a designated free throw guy. That will make teams more afraid to foul him and will, therefor, increase the quality of basketball in the NBA.

My point is this. When you start looking at matchups, that is the stuff of mathematicians, to be debated over a beer in the bars many years later. But sports aren't really about premier matchups and picking and choosing- this guy is my hitter, this guy is my fielder, this guy is the guy I will send up to the plate if my DH gets injured with two strikes in the 9th inning... it's about a group of men grinding it out. Playing the ENTIRE game. Sports are about character and character isn't built by pitting your best against my best in a vacuum. Character is built through struggle against adversity. David against Goliath. Goliath against another Goliath, while great for barroom discussions, is not what makes a great game. It is, ultimately, about the struggle.

I'd rather see a nobody go up against a 100 mile per hour fastball and eek out a blooper than see a couple of bruising designated hitters doing what they do best. If they want to do that, they should save it for the home run derby. Baseball is more than that...




Just my $0.02.

 

[knarfks]

I live in KC and am a royals fan, so I don't even know what good baseball is anymore except when a good team comes to town to have batting practice off of our bull pen.

 

[Wolf]

I live in KC and am a royals fan, so I don't even know what good baseball is anymore except when a good team comes to town to have batting practice off of our bull pen.

Someone buy this man a beer, he deserves it. He may have it worse than us Brewers fans...

As far as the NL/AL thing, I agree with what someone else here said, I think it's cool that the leagues are different. MLB is very unique in that way. I like the NL, but the AL having a DH doesn't really bother me, I just prefer the NL game. Baseball is cool that way, it's like Burger King, just pick a team so you can have it your way.

 

[jar]

I grew up in an NL town (Philadelphia) and spent years watching the NL game. I've lived in the Boston area for a few years now, and I've considered starting to follow the Red Sox. I can't seem to muster the same interest that I used to have. I think part of that is the AL game, but probably a greater part is just how busy I am.

I definitely prefer the strategy involved in the NL. Double switches, deciding whether to hit for the pitcher, the importance of the #8 hitter trying to turn the lineup over, etc.

 

[King of the Swill]

.220 is about the White Sox team average right now. I guess they all suck

 

[rdwj]

.220 is about the White Sox team average right now. I guess they all suck

They've been annoying me plenty this season so far, but that no-no by Buehrle last night helped my mood quite a bit.

 

[Brewsmith]

Pitchers suck at hitting. Who wants to see two easy outs at the end of the rotation? The AL brand of baseball is far superior and much more exciting.

Anyone watch the Dodger/Pirates game last night? Wolf pitched 10 strikeouts, retiring the side twice, allowed only 1 run and hit 2 doubles, getting 2 RBI's off of the first one. Who says batting 9th is an easy out.

Go Dodgers!

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Anyone watch the Dodger/Pirates game last night? Wolf pitched 10 strikeouts, retiring the side twice, allowed only 1 run and hit 2 doubles, getting 2 RBI's off of the first one. Who says batting 9th is an easy out.

Go Dodgers!

I think a good hitting/sacrificing pitcher in the NL is awesome. I used to love it back in the 90's when Glavine or Smoltz was up in the rotation for the Braves just because they were both great personnel for manufacturing runs.

 

[Brewsmith]

I agree. Just because a pitcher isn't a powerful hitter, doesn't make him not useful. I love National League baseball, which makes for great arguments in my house, since my wife loves the Angels.

 

[joshpooh]

In my opinion NL baseball is far superior to AL baseball. The DH takes so much out of the game. Yes some AL teams play small ball, the White Sox won the world series a couple years ago playing some small ball in the AL. Now they were a great team to watch. You smart ass AL fans can be as sarcastic as you want about sac bunts getting your blood flowing and stolen making your heart jump, but that stuff really does excite me. It is sad when you route for an NL team that can't seem to get that stuff right like I do (Pittsburgh Pirates).

I am also partial to the Red Sox though b/c I hate the Yankees and figure why not have a team in each league. I love my buccos though b/c they are the hometown team. There is a point to this what I was getting at is the team you cheer for should have nothing to do with which set of rules you like best. If the Pirates would switch to the AL they would still be my team and I would still hate the AL brand of baseball.

Which brings me to my next point. Frank Thomas, seems like a great man so I hate to badmouth him, but he is the ultimate example of washed up ringers who DH b/c there is no way they could play the field. He should not be playing its plain stupid that guys like that can hold on because of the DH. I will admit most DHs can play the field if they have to and some even do ok. Big Papi is known only as a DH, but he is decent at first and would certainly be in the majors with or without the DH rule.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

There is a point to this what I was getting at is the team you cheer for should have nothing to do with which set of rules you like best. If the Pirates would switch to the AL they would still be my team and I would still hate the AL brand of baseball.

Exactly! 100% Sox fan here, but I prefer NL rules.

 

[Wolf]

Wolf pitched 10 strikeouts, retiring the side twice, allowed only 1 run and hit 2 doubles, getting 2 RBI's off of the first one. Who says batting 9th is an easy out.

Damn I'm good.

 

[sause]

The Brewers-Cubs game tonight is the reason I like NL baseball better. The cubs had no more fielder palyers left on the bench. The brewers only had one and were down to their last pitcher. Pitching changes all night pinch hitters everytime the pitcher came up from the 6th on. Getting nerous on if your pitcher is going to be able to finish a game. It's really exciting.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

The Brewers-Cubs game tonight is the reason I like NL baseball better. The cubs had no more fielder palyers left on the bench. The brewers only had one and were down to their last pitcher. Pitching changes all night pinch hitters everytime the pitcher came up from the 6th on. Getting nerous on if your pitcher is going to be able to finish a game. It's really exciting.

Believe it or not though, there are plenty of baseball "fans" who are completely unaware of any strategy beyond "pitch it over the plate and try to make him miss". They don't see the game within the game. They don't know why the catcher was able to pick up the ball that was overthrown to first, they just know that somehow he got there when they weren't paying attention. They don't laugh their asses off when a team needs more than three players to run down a baserunner.

Some people really believe it's all about pitching and hitting and the fielders are just there to fill out the diamond...