Barley wine and roselare

[blakelyc]

I have been researching barley wines with wyeast roselare, and I have been reading a lot of conflicting or unclear info. So let's say I do a 5-gallon basic barley wine... Do I pitch just the roselare? Or roselare plus another yeast? I know the soury bugs crap out at low abv. Is it even possible to use this product in this way?

Thanks in advance for any advice.... I have never considered using anything like this before, but I have an extra fermenter that can sit for a long time so I figured I would give it a try. I just have no experience at all with anything like this.

Thanks!
-b

 

[blakelyc]

Or maybe I should scrap roselare and think about brett lambicus.... This is a confusing topic for me.

 

[BradleyBrew]

I would do the bulk of the fermentation with a standard ale yeast and then add bugs

 

[dinnerstick]

roeselare (note correct spelling!) blend has a 'belgian style ale strain' included so you could pitch straight, but you would be underpitching according to the yeast calculators. would the brett and bugs make up for this? would the lacto poop out straight away if you pitched them into already 10% abv beer? interesting questions, which i also hope someone has some insight into. i have only used it once; i pitched a pack of roeselare into a ~5% abv beer after it was almost done fermenting and tasted it yesterday after 3 months, it is already funky and a bit spicy, but not particularly sour

 

[BradleyBrew]

One thing to think about is that these "bugs" can be very sensitive to the IBU level of the beer. A barleywine obviously has significant amount of hops to counterbalance the malt sweetness. This I believe would somewhat limit the ability of the bugs. I read somewhere that bacteria doesn't perform well in conditions above 10 IBU's. This is one reason why you use old / stale hops when brewing Lambics and other sours. Again, I would not directly pitch a mixture of cultures and hope it chews through a barleywine.

 

[kmos]

I would do the bulk of the fermentation with a standard ale yeast and then add bugs

This makes sense to me as well -- You could let a clean profile sacc strain do the heavy lifting, then pitch the bugs after 3 or 4 days of primary (or however long it takes for the number to drop).

 

[duckmanco]

From my quite limited experience with sour homebrew, I'd pitch a clean ale yeast, either a few packs of Nottingham or US-05, and use a relatively warm mash temp. Then I'd pitch the roselare after and with the higher mash temp (155ish maybe?) you'll have left something for the bugs to chew on.

I think it sounds awesome... Go for it.

 

[blakelyc]

So here's what I have so far: formulate a barleywine recipe for about 1.090 OG and say 65-75 IBU. Knock it down to 1.050 or so with us-05 (Thoughts on 1945?), then pitch in roeselare. After maybe 2 months, rack it on 2 oz of medium toast Hungarian oak soaked in a Solera sherry.

I think I may do this on 2.5 gallon batch first. If it sucks, then it'll suck. It be fun to brew anyways

 

[BradleyBrew]

from wyeast

For the home brewer, the prepared lambic culture is the best choice for producing a great lambic beer. The cultures contained in the lambic blend will perform their jobs in sequence as long as the primary fermentation temperature is kept under control. If a brewer is looking to make a Berliner weisse or a sour brown, then the lactic acid cultures should be added with the pitching yeast in primary fermentation. Once again, it is important to keep IBU levels below 10.

I really think the alcohol level and IBU of a barleywine are going to inhibit there abilities to perform.

 

[CadillacAndy]

Some "off the cuff" thoughts are that the lacto probably doesn't stand much of a chance if you primary with sacc, even without hops being involved. The alcohol will probably get too much for it to do much of anything.

I'm not overly familiar with pedio or their sherry strain, so I can't comment about that without some more research.

Brett should be good up until about 12%, according to my recollection of the chart in "Wild Brews".

If nothing else, you're only going to be out 2.5 gallons of beer and $8 for the roselare (roeselare ).

 

[blakelyc]

But that's just for the lactobacillus, right? So I either back off completely on the hops or switch to pure Brett (probably lambicus). Going with just Brett is probably the best idea.

 

[Calder]

Madrugada Obscura from JP is 8.1% and about 35 IBUs.

I'd pitch dregs from a couple of JP bottles rather than a Wyeast pack. JP seem to have more tolerant bugs.

 

[CadillacAndy]

If I was going to go with sacc and brett I'd probably pitch the sacc and let it go for a couple of days and then pitch a starter of brett. Not a giant starter, but enough that it can grab hold and multiply enough to contribute some flavor before primary is done. The brett is still in there to slowly chew thru the rest of it over time.

 

[BradleyBrew]

^ agree

 

[Calder]

If I was going to go with sacc and brett I'd probably pitch the sacc and let it go for a couple of days and then pitch a starter of brett. Not a giant starter, but enough that it can grab hold and multiply enough to contribute some flavor before primary is done. The brett is still in there to slowly chew thru the rest of it over time.

Disagree. To get the Brett flavors, it needs to be stressed. To accomplish this it should be pitched after the Sacc has started and in a small amount (no starter). You want it to reproduce anaerobically to produce it's signature rustic flavors.

 

[CadillacAndy]

Disagree. To get the Brett flavors, it needs to be stressed. To accomplish this it should be pitched after the Sacc has started and in a small amount (no starter). You want it to reproduce anaerobically to produce it's signature rustic flavors.

Not after the sacc has gotten a big head start and the brett has time to chew thru what the sacc can't eat?

I agree that to get big funkiness from brett, you should stress it, but that is usually after sacc has had it's time with the beer. To speed up the funkiness, I'd probably mash high, hit it with sacc for a week, then pitch a vial of brett and let it go for some time.

Since we're talking about a high gravity barley wine here, I'd think there would be a ton of left over complex sugars for the brett to munch on for a couple of months and it will gladly produce signature flavors.

Not disagreeing with you, Calder, in a normal gravity beer situation.

 

[Calder]

Not disagreeing with you, Calder, in a normal gravity beer situation.

It was the need for a starter for the Brett that I was commenting on. I think that even if you pitch the Brett with the Sacc, the Sacc will win out in the O2 race, but I would agree with you that you would be better off pitching the Brett a few days later.

 

[CadillacAndy]

It was the need for a starter for the Brett that I was commenting on. I think that even if you pitch the Brett with the Sacc, the Sacc will win out in the O2 race, but I would agree with you that you would be better off pitching the Brett a few days later.

Totally agree with that.

 

[blakelyc]

So it is sounding like going with sacc + Brett is a better option than the roeselare, with the brett pitched is small-ish amount after 3-5 days.... Is there a target gravity where the Brett should be pitched or is it simply a "after it gets going" situation?

And not to redirect the thread, but I was reading about Brett L.... Should I be looking at brett B?

 

[CadillacAndy]

So it is sounding like going with sacc + Brett is a better option than the roeselare, with the brett pitched is small-ish amount after 3-5 days.... Is there a target gravity where the Brett should be pitched or is it simply a "after it gets going" situation?

And not to redirect the thread, but I was reading about Brett L.... Should I be looking at brett B?

Since this is a barley wine you can really probably wait until the primary is done. What's your target FG? There will still be plenty of complex sugar for the brett to chew thru. How long are you planning on letting it age?

 

[blakelyc]

Target gravity pre-Brett would be 1.030-1.025. Post-Brett I have no idea what to expect. For aging I was expecting to do 6-8 months in bulks, then 4-6 months in bottle. I have the room and the time, so I can do whatever.

 

[CadillacAndy]

Target gravity pre-Brett would be 1.030-1.025. Post-Brett I have no idea what to expect. For aging I was expecting to do 6-8 months in bulks, then 4-6 months in bottle. I have the room and the time, so I can do whatever.

That sounds like a pretty solid plan to me.

 

[BradleyBrew]

I will PM you my address when ready ... I will trade you for a my impression of a Bigfoot Clone I have in the primary now!

 

[blakelyc]

I will totally trade some in a year or so! Any strong feelings about oak? No oak? Fruit?

In for a penny, as the saying goes.

 

[BradleyBrew]

I will totally trade some in a year or so! Any strong feelings about oak? No oak? Fruit?

In for a penny, as the saying goes.

this is why god invented Carlo Rossi 1 gallon jugs. Oak 1 gallon!

 

[blakelyc]

Ha! I love the way you guys think. Thanks for your help! I will keep you folks in the loop as things progress...

 

[evolutionary]

Looking for a ten year follow up? Hoping it’s done now

 

[mashpaddled]

Looking for a ten year follow up? Hoping it’s done now

Looks like he went pro judging by the link in his sig. Maybe you could swing by and see if it's on tap.