banana esters in a weizen question

[polamalu43]

I've done some reading on brewing weizen's so that they can get that clove and banana weinenstephen taste, which I love. From what I understand, you need to get the specific strain of yeast to achieve this (wyeast 3068).

In order to further accentuate the banana ester flavors, am I right to try and ferment at higher temperature (75 degrees)? How high is too high if you are going for these estery flavors?

Is there anything else that can be done to improve the banana and clove tastes of a weizen? Has anyone ever tried to make a weinstephaner weizen clone?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[KENTUCKYBREWER]

High temps = ester production (banana)
Lower temps = phenol production (cloves)

You want to try and keep your ferment temps on the lower side. My understanding is the raise in temp during the initial ferment produces more ester and as it slows and temps drop you produce your phenols. You are going to want more clove than banana so pitch to a cooler wort

 

[Iordz]

I wouldn't ferment that high, the esters might overpower the beer at that point. Generally, I ferment around 62F and I get a great balance between the phenols and esters, but if you want more "banana" you can ferment around 68-70F.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I ferment at 70-72...I like banana also.

Any (liquid) German Weizen hefe will work great...do make a nice sized starter.

Yes, there is a Weihenstephan Weizen yeast available.

I have a couple WLP300s done that really accentuate the bubblegum flavor.

 

[Joker]

I used White Labs WLP300 and fermented in the mid 60's and got good banana flavor from it.

 

[greenleaf]

I live in FLorida so my temps are always high. I pitch to a 68 degree wort and then it ferments at about 72-74 and I get great Bananna flavor with not off tastes.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'm looking at wyeast 3638 for that banana & bubble gum flavor.

Top cropping hefeweizen yeast with complex flavor and aroma. Balance of banana and bubble gum esters with lichi and apple/plum esters and clove.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_styleguidelines.cfm#sg3

This link has some good info... scroll to the bottom wheat section.

Banana Line Dancing!!!

 

[eschatz]

i've read some things in Warners "German Wheat Beer" and Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beers" that calls for intial at lower temps (65f) then moving to gradually higher temps (70 - 73f). thats the two cents!

 

[polamalu43]

Thanks eschatz. Any other tips for wheat beers?

I am really striving to do my best to capture that weinenstephaner banana and clove sweetness.

 

[zoebisch01]

Yeah most of the authenticity you seek is in that yeast, and proper ferment temps for the yeast. Also, hopefully your recipe is really simple. If the recipe gets too busy, it'll detract from your goals. Banana esters in particular seem to be one of those things that some people are very sensitive to. I like my regular Hefe's to have the Banana (WLP300), but I like my Dunkel with more clove or other fruits (WLP380). There are lots of good choices out there. But as mentioned, get the Weihenstephaner strain if you want to reproduce that!

Ahh, ok this makes sense the WLP300= 3068. I think I fermented around 67/68 °F with it and it had a good balance.

 

[DeathBrewer]

i usualy ferment in the low to mid 60s for my weizens. i always get a nice banana flavor, but i like the clove taste more and it's definitely the dominant flavor.

I would agree that you should ferment low 60s the first few days for clove, then raise the temp to 70-72 the last few days for banana.

that should give you a nice mixture. drink it fresh, too, as that banana will subside with time.

 

[hollowdp]

Just an FYI in brewing classic styles by Jamil it discusses much trial and error that resulted in 62 degrees being the best fermentation temp for all the german wheats.

 

[polamalu43]

Last temps question:

I’m all over the place on this. When I brought my beer downstairs, it was somewhere around 75-77 (probably more like 75). After just a day, the temp dropped to 63-66 (probably more like 65). I then brought it back upstairs, where it’s at 70.

Could someone please explain to me the effects of large (i.e. 10 degree) temperature changes on the yeast and fermentation. Again, I’m using wyeast 3068. I doubt that I stunted fermentation altogether. I’ll let you all know how this turns out, but I’m very, very curious to get your take on it.

Thanks.

 

[homebrewer_99]

It really depends on the amount of active fermentation that was going on at the time you transferred it between floors.

Warmer temps (69-75) = banana
Lower temps = (<68) cloves..

 

[DeToX]

I know this thread is well into the archives but I was hoping to revive it for a moment to solicit some advice about temp control for the 3068 since this is the first time I have used this strain.

I made a wheat based hefe. Pitched thin and have been fermenting in the primary for 8 days at 73*-75* to increase the esters of this yeast.

My question is - I normally keep my beer in primary fermentation for 2 weeks then I transfer the beer off the cake to a secondary to condition for 2 more weeks (minimum) before I transfer to a keg and force carb. Do I need to keep the temps in the secondary up like I am in the primary or can I let off the heat and let the yeast to begin to settle out and let the beer cool and condition? I want to keep the esters up as much as possible without implementing a lot of Phenol clove.

Any experience or help would be appreciated guys. Cheers!

 

[Schlenkerla]

I know this thread is well into the archives but I was hoping to revive it for a moment to solicit some advice about temp control for the 3068 since this is the first time I have used this strain.

I made a wheat based hefe. Pitched thin and have been fermenting in the primary for 8 days at 73*-75* to increase the esters of this yeast.

My question is - I normally keep my beer in primary fermentation for 2 weeks then I transfer the beer off the cake to a secondary to condition for 2 more weeks (minimum) before I transfer to a keg and force carb. Do I need to keep the temps in the secondary up like I am in the primary or can I let off the heat and let the yeast to begin to settle out and let the beer cool and condition? I want to keep the esters up as much as possible without implementing a lot of Phenol clove.

Any experience or help would be appreciated guys. Cheers!

You should maintain your fermentation temp until fermentation stops. Then give it a little time to let the yeast settle out, then bottle or keg.

IMHO - Total about three weeks. I don't usually secondary unless I need clarity, dry hopping or adding something like AE or fruit.

My experience banana ester is on the high end of 3068 fermentation temps whereas clove is nearer to lower end. 64-75F. I attached the wyeast link.

Appears banana ester is accentuated by high temps, higher OG, and under pitching. The latter two being closely related.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/com_b_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=135

 

[DeToX]

Ok, maybe someone can point me to what went wrong here. Here is my rundown:

1) Pitched SmackPack of WY 3068 into 70* 1.054 wort

2) Kept fermentation temps between 73*-75* for 10 days in Primary

3) Lowered primary temps to 63*- 65* (room temp) for 4 days making 2 week primary fermentation.

4) Transferred into Secondary to condition/clear more. Gravity at 1.005

Tasted the beer (as I always do) when I transferred into the Secondary but there is NOT ONE hint of banana. NONE! Temps were high enough & I know the beer is done based on gravity. But why no banana? I am heartbroken...

Where's MY

Suggestions?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Ok, maybe someone can point me to what went wrong here. Here is my rundown:

1) Pitched SmackPack of WY 3068 into 70* 1.054 wort

2) Kept fermentation temps between 73*-75* for 10 days in Primary

3) Lowered primary temps to 63*- 65* (room temp) for 4 days making 2 week primary fermentation.

4) Transferred into Secondary to condition/clear more. Gravity at 1.005

Tasted the beer (as I always do) when I transferred into the Secondary but there is NOT ONE hint of banana. NONE! Temps were high enough & I know the beer is done based on gravity. But why no banana? I am heartbroken...

Where's MY

Suggestions?

Carbonate and see if you feel the same way.

 

[DeToX]

Carbonate and see if you feel the same way.

You are trying to tell me that the addition of CO2 (kegging) is going to bring out my BO-NANAS?!

I've been brewing along time and I have yet to have a beer change profile that much due to gassing it. I sure hope you are right...

If I may - what makes you think that?

 

[Schlenkerla]

You are trying to tell me that the addition of CO2 (kegging) is going to bring out my BO-NANAS?!

I've been brewing along time and I have yet to have a beer change profile that much due to gassing it. I sure hope you are right...

If I may - what makes you think that?

I'm saying it's a possibility. Not guaranteed. Flavor is perceived mostly through aroma. The out gassing of CO2 in a high heffeweizen glass may bring about the banana esters that you want in the beer. Carbonate it high, like to 3 volumes of CO2.

If you can, I'd try to naturally carb doing so warm. To do so, it would ensure more banana esters to be produced during carbonation.

Has the bear clarified a good deal? I assume you didn't use some clarifying agent like irish moss. Right? Crash chilling after the boil ensures little to no DMS, but it crashes through the protein break temp range where it doesn't have much time go back into solution. The protein and yeast make it cloudy. Protein is responsible for chill haze. Yeast just because it doesn't flocculate or settle out of solution.

Also make sure during racking you should stir up some sediment. I say "some" NOT a lot. Having some suspended yeast brings about this estery characteristic. Ever hear about rolling a bottle of wheat beer to roust the yeast? If you keg you might choose to roust the yeast occasionally with a good keg shake.

I know by experience naturally carbonation can bring about a flavor change and it might only be temporary. In my signature read the Myeast 50327 link. You might find it interesting.

Tasting this beer when flat, it was wonderful. Nice and floral. Once carbed, it changed, got sick. The brett, wild yeast, bacteria, whatever came active. Tasted like puke and leather glove. About a year later completely drinkable like when it was flat.

I hope this helps and you get what you're after in this beer.

Let me know how it goes.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Do you like the taste of banana or just really trying to emulate the style of a beer that you drank?

The reason I ask there are easy non traditional ways to get a banana flavor in your beer.

I once made a banana cream ale with several pounds of banana in the secondary. It's was very banana flavored. The base beer was a copperish-red pale ale with a 20 IBU.

I have never tried this. I read this not too long ago. A recipe for hot chocolate with banana flavor called for heating up milk with a banana peel. So one could add banana to the boil at different times, most likely after 15 minutes.

So if you naturally carb........ If you boil/steep banana peel, let it cool, pitch that along with your yeast you might enhance the banana flavor. I personally would NEVER do that.

Your beer should be pretty good with following the standard practice for brewing a hefe.

If you want a banana fruit beer let me know. Ok

Actually it was pretty good and I added vanilla to it.....

 

[Schlenkerla]

Now I'm thinking I need to make BIG Imperial Banana Cream Ale.

 

[DeToX]

I'm saying it's a possibility. Not guaranteed. Flavor is perceived mostly through aroma. The out gassing of CO2 in a high heffeweizen glass may bring about the banana esters that you want in the beer. Carbonate it high, like to 3 volumes of CO2.

If you can, I'd try to naturally carb doing so warm. To do so, it would ensure more banana esters to be produced during carbonation.

Has the bear clarified a good deal? I assume you didn't use some clarifying agent like irish moss. Right? Crash chilling after the boil ensures little to no DMS, but it crashes through the protein break temp range where it doesn't have much time go back into solution. The protein and yeast make it cloudy. Protein is responsible for chill haze. Yeast just because it doesn't flocculate or settle out of solution.

Also make sure during racking you should stir up some sediment. I say "some" NOT a lot. Having some suspended yeast brings about this estery characteristic. Ever hear about rolling a bottle of wheat beer to roust the yeast? If you keg you might choose to roust the yeast occasionally with a good keg shake.

I know by experience naturally carbonation can bring about a flavor change and it might only be temporary. In my signature read the Myeast 50327 link. You might find it interesting.

Tasting this beer when flat, it was wonderful. Nice and floral. Once carbed, it changed, got sick. The brett, wild yeast, bacteria, whatever came active. Tasted like puke and leather glove. About a year later completely drinkable like when it was flat.

I hope this helps and you get what you're after in this beer.

Let me know how it goes.

I am not after "Banana" as in like biting into a "Banana" so it is more so to resemble a style of beer that I have had a few times over the years. It was a soft wheat, with a nice Hefe profile and good back tones of malt and bananas. The banana was in the flavor, not the nose. I'm not one for adding flavor to beer. It takes away from the nature flavors of the malt & yeast.

I generally do not carb with sugar. I have bottled a few batches over the years and they have been fine, but it is so much easier to keg and force carb. I guess I would not be opposed to trying to sugar charge this beer in the keg, just worry about infection, possible pressure leaks, not enough time to properly charge, not enough sugar, too much sugar, etc.

I never use clarifying agents. And I never cold crash. I cool the wort as quickly as possible after the boil prior to pitching, but that's all. I leave the beer as is so I always have a bit of yeast in the bottom of the keg.

The cake settled nicely before I transferred the beer to the Secondary. Still fairly cloudy so I know there's still enough yeast to charge if I did go that route. There's a nice layer already on the bottom of the Secondary.

I will give the beer at least a week in the Secondary to condition, which gives me until next weekend to figure out what I am going to do (sugar or force)... Maybe what I can do is make up a couple of bottles and set them off to the side and gas the rest. Then do a comparison. Hell, I don't know....

Thanks for the info though. It's appreciated. I'll keep you in the loop.

 

[Jack_R]

I ferment at 70-72...I like banana also.

Any (liquid) German Weizen hefe will work great...do make a nice sized starter.

Yes, there is a Weihenstephan Weizen yeast available.

I have a couple WLP300s done that really accentuate the bubblegum flavor.

HB 99 - what temp profile do you generally run for that bubblegum?