Balancing Hops, Recipe Formulation

[bwible]

I searched for this but couldn't find anything. People talk a lot about beer balance. How do we balance hops?

What I mean by that is lets say we have a lager beer recipe with 2 hop additions - one at 60 min and one at 20 min and we want 20 IBUs. If I enter an ounce at of Perle at 60 min and an ounce of Hallertauer at 20 min, my stupid software says each hop is 50%. That's true from a pure amount of ingredient standpoint. But the Perle is contributing a whole lot more bitterness than the Hallertauer.

So the question is - about what percentage of the 20 IBUs do you want from the 60 min addition and what percentage from the 20 min addition?

 

[BigEd]

The majority of the IBUs will and should come from the longer 60 minute boil addition. The 20 minute addition will be mostly for flavor but contribute some IBU and aroma too. I don't know what the exact percentages might be but I'd guess about 75% or more from the 60 minute addition.

 

[day_trippr]

Within the limits of measurement, recipe software should be able to predict IBUs with a comfortable reliability. Perhaps using something other than the "stupid software" mentioned would be a first step...

Cheers!

 

[bwible]

Well I can uncheck the 20 min addition and see the IBUs from just the 60 min addition and figure it out manually. I did a lager recently where about 85% was from the 60 min hops. I’m thinking that was too much and I’m thinking of going about 66% for the one I’m planning to do tomorrow. 2/3 makes sense since 20 min is 1/3 of 60 min.

I guess I’m wondering if there’s some kind of standard for this.

 

[BigEd]

I guess I’m wondering if there’s some kind of standard for this.

I don't think there is. You will get some bitterness from the later addition but its main purpose is for flavor and some aroma enhancement. Putting enough hops in the late addition to create a large amount of the beer's IBUs is going to unbalance the flavor profile IMO. Don't lock yourself into using just a pre-measured ounce of hops. If less than an ounce will do the job at 20 minutes, so be it. Then adjust the 60 minute addition accordingly to get to your 20 IBU number.

 

[bwible]

Trust me I’m not locked into anything. I’m doing 3 gallon batches and I have a gram scale because of so many odd measurements. I was just using 1 ounce additions in the example for simplicity.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

Trust me I’m not locked into anything. I’m doing 3 gallon batches and I have a gram scale because of so many odd measurements. I was just using 1 ounce additions in the example for simplicity.

Came across this thread a while back, hope it may be useful to you. Interpreting your question as what are traditional techniques.

Chasing the perfect Munich Helles

 

[bwible]

So I sat down and gave this thought - the idea of figuring or creating IBUs from a hop addition relative to the total boil and the time remaining when the hops are added. I don’t know if I’m trying to apply a formula where none makes sense or if there might be something to this.

Start with a simple one. I am making a lager with 20 IBUs and hop additions at 60 min and 20 min. Relative to each other, 60 is 3 times 20 or 20 is 1/3 of 60. So its easy enough to say 2/3 of the 20 IBU should come from the 60 min addition and 1/3 from the 60 min addition.

60 min = 20 x .666 = 13.3
20 min = 20 x .333 = 6.66
13.3 + 6.66 = 19.9

Now let’s take a harder one. I’m doing an IPA with 75 IBUs and hop additions at 60, 45, 30, 15 and 5. So here’s where we apply the algebra we were all forced to learn that we all never thought we would actually use. 15 is 3 times 5, 30 is 6 times 5, etc. So we go X + 3X + 6X + 9X + 12X = 75 IBU. 31X = 75. X = 2.41

60 min = 12 x 2.41 = 28.92
45 min = 9 x 2.41 = 21.69
30 min = 6 x 2.41 = 14.46
15 min = 3 x 2.41 = 7.23
5 min = 2.41

28.92 + 21.69 + 14.46 + 7.23 + 2.41 = 74.71

So wondering if I am onto something or if this works in the real world without doing any experiments. Seems to make more sense than randomly adding hops. 3/4 of an ounce here “because”, etc.

 

[Turricaine]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/
This piece of software is useful.

For example, I was able to calculate that my current batch is 40.73 IBU, although while it is quite a weak batch in terms of the amount of grains used it still has a hoppy taste profile. It still tastes like a full beer although I do not get drunk fast enough and am running too many litres from the keg to be worth the effort.

I wouldn't try and target 20 IBU if I were you. This won't taste hoppy enough. I would say that you want at least 40 IBU even if the amount of fermented alcohol is less.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The first thing to wrap your mind around is the relationship of hop utilization to IBUs. An ounce of hops boiled for 60 minutes will have much higher utilization than the same ounce of hops boiled for 20 minutes. The former is a 'boil' addition, and the latter is a 'flavor/aroma' addition.

...lets say we have a lager beer recipe with 2 hop additions - one at 60 min and one at 20 min and we want 20 IBUs. If I enter an ounce at of Perle at 60 min and an ounce of Hallertauer at 20 min, my stupid software says each hop is 50%. That's true from a pure amount of ingredient standpoint. But the Perle is contributing a whole lot more bitterness than the Hallertauer.

First, decide on the amount of flavor and aroma your beer will have and how many IBUs will come from that addition. Next, subtract that from the total IBUs recommended for the beer style.

So the question is - about what percentage of the 20 IBUs do you want from the 60 min addition and what percentage from the 20 min addition?

Beer brewed focusing only on IBUs for bittering will not have much going for it in the flavor and aroma department. Searching for bitterness and gravity unit ratios will give you a better idea of balanced beer concepts.

 

[D.B.Moody]

The problem I see is that this seems to ignore the alpha acids of the additions. If you do a 30 minute addition, you are presumably doing it to get the flavor, and the additional, incidental bitterness addition is being accounted for. As in you example, the second addition is often a second hop with, presumably, a different alpha acid. The point is that the amount of the second addition is driven by the amount of flavor desired, and the bitterness it adds just means the first addition gets reduced.

If I'm missing something, it's probably because I don't do IBUs. I still think and brew in terms of HBUs.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Wrote the above while @ScrewyBrewer was posting. I meant my post as a reply to @bwible's initial question.

 

[bwible]

The first thing to wrap your mind around is the relationship of hop utilization to IBUs. An ounce of hops boiled for 60 minutes will have much higher utilization than the same ounce of hops boiled for 20 minutes. The former is a 'boil' addition, and the latter is a 'flavor/aroma' addition.

First, decide on the amount of flavor and aroma your beer will have and how many IBUs will come from that addition. Next, subtract that from the total IBUs recommended for the beer style.

Beer brewed focusing only on IBUs for bittering will not have much going for it in the flavor and aroma department. Searching for bitterness and gravity unit ratios will give you a better idea of balanced beer concepts.

I’ve been brewing for 25 years, I understand all this. What I’m approaching is a question of recipe design. Not trying to figure out what my IBUs are. I get that different hops have different alpha acids and different bitterness. I have software that I use. The idea of utilization is built into each addition in the software. I typically select the Tinseth model. I can enter .25 ounce of Cascade at 5 min and see what the IBU from that addition is. I’m just looking at this as a function of designing recipes.

This is one of the things I know I always struggled with as far as recipe design. Aside from there now being 250 hop varities to pick from, maybe 15 I’ve ever used, its always been a question of why. Why 60, 20 additions in one recipe. Why 60, 30, 15, 5 additions in another. Is .75 ounce too much for a 30 min addition, etc. Its all about designing the recipe and getting the hop flavors right.

One of things this won’t work with is zero minute additions and also whirlpool hops which are big now. We always thought zero minute or flameout additions did not add IBUs which has been proven wrong. Some software will figure whirlpool additions and I suppose you could decide a percentage that you want from that.

I just never found rhyme or reason to some hopping schemes.

 

[bwible]

I wouldn't try and target 20 IBU if I were you. This won't taste hoppy enough. I would say that you want at least 40 IBU even if the amount of fermented alcohol is less.

I am actually taking a stab at American Lager. Not the first time I’ve done it. I have a recipe I’m tweaking. 20 IBU is past the high end “for style” which is about 18 IBU. Yeah I can buy it cheaper. But I enjoy the challenge. No I’m not going to enter it in any competitions so nobody cares but me. I also have a clone recipe I’m working on for a local brewed amber lager.

I know what you’re saying though, most of the time it seems like the recipes brewed by the guidelines don’t have enough hops. I got slammed for not enough hops from my earliest days of entering competitions brewing “by the guidelines”, especially APAs or IPAs.

 

[pvtpublic]

So I sat down and gave this thought - the idea of figuring or creating IBUs from a hop addition relative to the total boil and the time remaining when the hops are added. I don’t know if I’m trying to apply a formula where none makes sense or if there might be something to this.
........
So wondering if I am onto something or if this works in the real world without doing any experiments. Seems to make more sense than randomly adding hops. 3/4 of an ounce here “because”, etc.

You are on to something, yes. But you have to figure in utilization and alpha acid content. Unfortunately, utilization isn't linear.
I use the rager formula, it's the only one I've known, and the utilization chart from Ray Daniel's "Designing Great Beers"
So the formula is as follows,
IBUs=(AA%×Utilization×Grams×1000)/Liters

Here's a utilization chart from realbeer.com

 

[Turricaine]

Btw, I found a youtube vlogger who said that the modern addition of hops has been revised to a 30 minutes of continuous boil rather than the 60 min quoted in most of the available theory. You don't even need to boil that vigorously once you reach the boiling temperature it only needs to simmer.

"The 2500 W strong heating element heats the mash up. Once it reaches the desired temperature, it keeps the mash at a constant temperature for hours. Depending on to what level the boiler is filled, the power can then be reduced to 900 or 1600 watts for more economical energy consumption. "



Also notable is a calculation called BU/GU ratio. Generally, a ratio of <1 is the right amount.

 

[AlexKay]

I see what you’re asking, I think. My opinion — by all means not rigorously tested — is that timing of hop additions only matters in a very rough sense. I don’t think there’s a meaningful difference, for instance, between 20 and 10 minute additions, or between 5 and flameout. I suspect (but don’t know) that I couldn’t tell the difference in a side by side taste test.

In practice, I use a bittering addition at 60 and a flavor addition somewhat randomly chosen between 5 and 15. Hop-forward styles also get whirlpool hops or sometimes dry hops.

So then I work backwards. For a malty style (say, a doppelbock) I’ll decide on a 15-minute addition of Spalt at around 5 g/gallon — that’s a guess, informed by previous batches, on what will be noticeable but very much in the background. I’ll put that addition into the IBU calculator, see how many IBUs I’ll need for the bittering addition, and calculate the 60-minute Magnum (always Magnum) hop charge accordingly. I suspect that the flavor addition could go in at 20 or 5 and (after adjusting IBUs) the final product would essentially be the same.

I’m never targeting a number; i.e., 33% of the bitterness should come from the later additions.

I usually use only one hop for flavor/aroma, except sometimes I’ll pick two varieties for IPAs. I don’t believe anyone can taste Mosaic after the Citra and Simcoe and Amarillo have gone in. Certainly I couldn’t.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here's a utilization chart from realbeer.com

Additional information for what looks like the (Tinseth) utilization chart can be found here (link).

Can we include, by reference, the occasionally reoccurring 'whole hops vs pellet hops; BBR Nov 1 2018 Hamilton PDF; ...; ...' ..." discussion?

 

[pvtpublic]

Additional information for what looks like the (Tinseth) utilization chart can be found here (link).

Can we include, by reference, the occasionally reoccurring 'whole hops vs pellet hops; BBR Nov 1 2018 Hamilton PDF; ...; ...' ..." discussion?

Yes, I suppose I should have specified that it's the tinseth chart. I can snap a photo of the Rager chart when I get home.

I agree that we could get into whole vs pellet vs plug vs cryo discussion. It's fascinating.

 

[catalanotte]

I have always approached this by calculating the IBUs from each addition separately. By building a recipe around the hop aroma and flavor additions that will drive the hop character of the beer first, you "balance" the beer with the bittering hops. When I like what I have for hop additions in the last 30 minutes of the boil plus any whirlpool or flameout additions, I calculate how much of the main bittering hop to add at the start of the boil to achieve the overall target IBU for the recipe.

Lots of assumptions go into these calculations, but with many of the resources posted you can build a formula, or just enter the additions one at a time in you software to see the IBUs. Watch out for late additions and the time the wort remains above 180 deg F. All of that time needs to be considered for hop utilization, not just the boil time. This doesn't matter for bittering as your utilization tapers off around 60minutes.

 

[pvtpublic]

I have always approached this by calculating the IBUs from each addition separately. By building a recipe around the hop aroma and flavor additions that will drive the hop character of the beer first, you "balance" the beer with the bittering hops. When I like what I have for hop additions in the last 30 minutes of the boil plus any whirlpool or flameout additions, I calculate how much of the main bittering hop to add at the start of the boil to achieve the overall target IBU for the recipe.

I couldn't agree more. The flavor and aroma need to be dialed in first. Bittering is easy and should be done last.

Lots of assumptions go into these calculations, but with many of the resources posted you can build a formula, or just enter the additions one at a time in you software to see the IBUs.

Yeah, but it's a great starting point! It's how you learn your system and your process. You start with what you calculated, then try to repeat it until you get consistency. Then you'll know how to adjust from there.

 

[Red over White]

I balance the hops differently. With a single boil hop charge for a helles or adjunct lager I like to use an ounce of Liberty, Sterling or Mittlefrüh and the balance is Magnum to achieve the desired IBU's. Through trial and error this combination of high and low AA hops gives me a pleasant bitterness that is firmly there, but not sharp. If I am adding a second addition in the last half of the boil I prefer lower AA hops to higher AA hops, I find them "softer". Hops with high AA and low beta acids are too much and they throw the beer out of balance to me if used late. If I have a beer with multiple varieties of hops I do my best to use the higher AA hops earlier and the lower AA ones later in the boil. The IBU's alongside the AA & Beta acids and when they are used in the boil plays a big part of balance for me. This is purely just my preference though.