Bad batches.. Help me spot the weak part of my process

[beauvafr]

I am brewing All grain. Mostly BIAB and sometimes in a cooler mash tun. I got a couple of bad batches recently. Infected or not I can't tell. About 3 batch I made recently got a strong vegetal and pungent taste. No bad odours or sign or putrefaction. Not that much drinkable. I throwed them. And on top of that, my last batch came even worse with strange dry floating withe islands and spots, a strong odor, and a strong yeastish taste :

look here

So for the last 6 batchs, I got half of them wrong. I also made about 10 batch before (extract and all-grain) and they were on spot! Thrust me, I am very picky on beers. I am also a really big fan of sanitizing. My house is clean but everything that touch the beer got an extra of cleaning + Star San soaking or boiling.

I tough infection was not that easy to get. I am now thinking of selling everything. It's very frustrating. I hope you can help me spot what I missed or I do wrong.

To help you, here is some observations I narrowed :

1. My 3 first bad batches were tasting great before dry hopping
2. My last batch was tasting strong yeast all along, no dry hopping before I transfer it to keg and found it was spoiled
3. All batches that cames bad had a dry hopping or a 0 min addition
4. Almost every batch that cames bad used hops from the same Amarillo batch (dry hopping or 0 min addition). I am not sure for the first one..
5. All batch were fermented in the low 60' for the first 3-4 days, put to 70F for 5-10 days and then bringed back to 60-65f for the last day of fermentation
6. All were fermented in a SS Brew bucket, washed thoroughly with oxy and sanitized with star stan, no water rinse
7. I found that when you dry the SS Brew bucket with a scott towel after star san rinsing, it leaves gray residue on the scott towel. Does SS steel of the Brew Bucket got a problem with Star San?
8. I used liquid yeast with a starter for most of the batches.. if not all.
9. All bad batch were detected wrong before kegging (so at least my keg gear is not involved)

My sanitation method :

For cleaning I use Oxyclean for everything. I soak things in it for an hour with hot water, except for plastic (10 min with warm-cold water). I then use starsan. I never rinse with water after that. I shake or let Star San drain. As for everything that touch the brew gear, I use starsan intensively with a spray. Really. I am systematic. I sometimes used a mix of bleach and water before this routine, if I suspect somethings wrong. I will do this tomorrow since my last batch went wrong. I dry hop in a tea ball since the last couple of batches. Most of the time I do it in the keg.

I am thinking of brewing a couple more batches but not without adding some changes in my routines. I hope you can help me with that.

What would you do?

 

[CorporateHippie]

Thrust me,....

....I hope you can help me with that.

No thanks

 

[jimyson]

Do you use distilled water with your StarSan mix? Do you store your mix for an extended period of time? Have you measured the PH of your mix?

 

[Rcbandl]

The first thing I would look at is any tubing your using post boil. That is probably the most common point of contamination that is commonly overlooked.

 

[giant]

What do you use to measure your grain? Is it the same vessel used for fermentation?

I have had several batches go bad after dry hopping with a bag. I now throw the hops in without a bag.

I have had several batches go bad because of a contaminated bucket. I threw it out and put boiled water in the others.

I used to have problems with my plate chiller, so I went to a submersion chiller and place it in the boil 15 min prior to 0.

I don't use any tubing to get my beer into the fermentation vessel. I either leave the valve open and drain into a strainer->bucket, or I pour into strainer->bucket.

I've not had many issues since that.

Don't give up. Just focus on one good batch, even if it means new methods and/or fermentation equipment.

 

[flars]

This may not be part of the problem, but discontinue using oxyclean on stainless steel. Clean stainless steel with Barkeepers Friend, using a soft pad, nothing that will scratch. Let the kettle air dry for a couple of days to passivate the steel. Sanitize with Starsan, but don't hold Starsan in stainless long term.

 

[pvault98]

How are you getting your beer cooling the wort and then how do you transfer it to the fermenter from the kettle? If you are using a siphon to rack the cooled wort then definitely replace it asap.

Since the beer is contaminated in the fermenter, I would focus on your fermenter and everything that gets to wort to it. Replace any plastic tubing as it is cheap and impossible to clean thoroughly. Next you need to get down to business on cleaning your brew bucket. You can use TSP, PBW, or most any other typical cleaning agent and clean every inch of it a couple of times. You cannot sanitize something if it is dirty. After that get to sanitizing it, maybe even a couple of times. Some would advise using two different sanitizers in case your infection has become somewhat resilient to what you have been using.

No need to sell all of your equipment, just look at your equipment that could be the problem and focus on wiping out the infection.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Based on the pics you linked, that's infection. If you've been getting that in all your beers, it's likely a common element between them all. Without knowing how you transfer to the fermenter, if they've all gone in the same fermenter, then it's probably the fermenter. I haven't used one of those brew buckets, but are there any nooks and crannies (bulkhead around the diptube, anything like that)? Take apart everything you can. Replace everything that's plastic or rubber (I see some sort of rubber o-ring in the pics). If you're using a plate chiller or CFC I'd probably flush the everloving hell out of it, then go through some intensive method of cleaning/sanitizing it (I'd search the internet but flushing with boiling water or better yet boiling water inside would be where I'd think to go).

 

[beauvafr]

Do you use distilled water with your StarSan mix? Do you store your mix for an extended period of time? Have you measured the PH of your mix?

I use tap water because I heard it was just fine and I store the mis for max a month then I make another mix.

As for the PH.. what level should it be?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I use tap water because I heard it was just fine and I store the mis for max a month then I make another mix.

As for the PH.. what level should it be?

Distilled water will last longer than tap water, and keeping it out of the elements (sealed container) will also let it keep longer. pH should be below 3 or it's no longer effective. I use tap water too, and if I suspect it I sweeten the mix with a little more Star San.

 

[beauvafr]

Based on the pics you linked, that's infection. If you've been getting that in all your beers, it's likely a common element between them all. Without knowing how you transfer to the fermenter, if they've all gone in the same fermenter, then it's probably the fermenter. I haven't used one of those brew buckets, but are there any nooks and crannies (bulkhead around the diptube, anything like that)? Take apart everything you can. Replace everything that's plastic or rubber (I see some sort of rubber o-ring in the pics). If you're using a plate chiller or CFC I'd probably flush the everloving hell out of it, then go through some intensive method of cleaning/sanitizing it (I'd search the internet but flushing with boiling water or better yet boiling water inside would be where I'd think to go).

About the pics you saw, I only had this effect on beer for the last brew. The others times beer was clean apart maybe some fine particules that looked like yeast but floating. Wasn't sure what it was.

I have a lid gasket on the top of my brew bucket that is made of sillicon. I let it soak in Oxy between each brews and just before brewing on the next one I wash it with warm water and rinse it in Star San. Today, I let it soaked in warm mix of water / bleach (3 tbs) before doing my Oxy cleaning routine. Are you saying it can still carry infection after this?

Here is the part I am talking about

 

[beauvafr]

I am transferring with a sillicone hose. I think I will replace it too. How do you clean yours?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Plastic and rubber can provide micro crevices you can't see or feel, but that provide places for bacteria to hide and can an infection difficult to eradicate. Metal and glass are a little easier to work with. If you can replace the gasket(s) cheaply, I would say it's worth it. Same goes for tubing and what not. If you can replace it cheaply then replace it.

If you've only gotten the pellicle formation (all that white flaky stuff on top, not all pellicles will look like that but it's definitely pellicle) on the one batch, the other stuff on the others could very well just be floating yeast and hop matter, perfectly normal, and it's probably something else. Or, they were still infected and there just wasn't enough time for a pellicle to form.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I am transferring with a sillicone hose. I think I will replace it too. How do you clean yours?

I clean my gear with a 24 hour soak in PBW followed by hot water rinse, followed by star-san, no rinse. And then rinse with hot water and dry immediately after use. And then repeat with PBW/Star San before next use.

As far as hoses, if they're suspect, I either toss them or relegate them to the sour gear.

 

[beauvafr]

Two things that are coming to my mind.

1. Sometimes when I wash my brew bucket made of stainless steel, I use a dollorama scrubber on the rough side. Is it a problem?

This kind, yellow and green
And I use those ones often

2. Hops. I keep them in the freezer, in a tupperware. I ordered a lot and had not much time to brew in the last months so they are getting old, some a little more than a year. I suspect one of my supplier to supply hops that are not realy fresh (custom bags, no production date, vague answers..). Can this be related too?

 

[beauvafr]

This may not be part of the problem, but discontinue using oxyclean on stainless steel. Clean stainless steel with Barkeepers Friend, using a soft pad, nothing that will scratch. Let the kettle air dry for a couple of days to passivate the steel. Sanitize with Starsan, but don't hold Starsan in stainless long term.

Barkeepers Friend in a fermenter or a kettle? Ouch.. I doesn't seem that natural to me. I hope you rinse it well.

About Star San.. you rinse with water after or just let it dry?

 

[Qhrumphf]

2. Hops. I keep them in the freezer, in a tupperware. I ordered a lot and had not much time to brew in the last months so they are getting old, some a little more than a year. I suspect one of my supplier to supply hops that are not realy fresh (custom bags, no production date, vague answers..). Can this be related too?

If you're getting vegetal contributions after dry hopping then absolutely old stale oxidized hops could be the problem.

 

[pvault98]

Barkeepers Friend in a fermenter or a kettle? Ouch.. I doesn't seem that natural to me. I hope you rinse it well.

About Star San.. you rinse with water after or just let it dry?

Barkeeper's friend is fine for use on cookware so it is fine for fermenters and kettles. It is basically just Oxalic Acid and just needs to be rinsed off like any other cleaning agent. John Palmer recommends it as well in How to Brew.

 

[newbrewerkaf]

Hops are a post boil common factor. So change that . I have never had star San fail but if the hops didn't fix it I would use bleach or iodine just to change things up.

 

[cjgenever]

[*]I found that when you dry the SS Brew bucket with a scott towel after star san rinsing, it leaves gray residue on the scott towel. Does SS steel of the Brew Bucket got a problem with Star San?

Dude, you just wiped a bunch of bacteria across a freshly sanitized surface! Dump out the excess starsan and rack onto the foam or let it drip dry upside down. NO WIPING

 

[cjgenever]

Almost impossible that hops are the issue unless they were not dried properly. Even then, it is more likely that they would be brown and cheesy smelling and still not hurt the beer.

 

[cjgenever]

Oxi, pbw, starsan all fine with stainless. NO bleach ever on stainless

 

[Homer]

You are rinsing after the oxyclean, correct? Also, is the oxyclean non scented?

 

[aviator01]

http://morebeer.com PBW is the beer deal of the day. Only one left so hurry up.

 

[beauvafr]

Dude, you just wiped a bunch of bacteria across a freshly sanitized surface! Dump out the excess starsan and rack onto the foam or let it drip dry upside down. NO WIPING

Never did that inside the fermenter. Only outside

 

[beauvafr]

You are rinsing after the oxyclean, correct? Also, is the oxyclean non scented?

Yes I rinse a lot. I use the walmart homebrand which is unsented.

 

[beauvafr]

Hops are a post boil common factor. So change that . I have never had star San fail but if the hops didn't fix it I would use bleach or iodine just to change things up.

What do you suggest to change about hops?